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Thread: Ken Ham Calls Andy Stanley a 'False Teacher'

  1. #11
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    From the article :

    The sermon was the third and final part of a sermon series titled "Aftermath" that was centered on reaching out to individuals who lost their faith because of something in the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, which he admitted was "violent" and "disturbing."

    Stanley explained in the sermon that while he believes the Old Testament is "divinely inspired," it is only the "back story for the main story" and should not be "the go-to source regarding any behavior in the church."


    I understand that. It can be very difficult to figure out what was God approved and what was not in the Old Testament, especially considering that Satan did things that were then ascribed to God. This includes the doings of various people who believed in and followed God in general, as well. I've heard a lot of criticism of the Bible based on assumptions that such and such statements or actions, usually in the OT, are God approved.

    If someone reads Judges 11 and then loses faith because Jephthah sacrificed a random member of his own household - not even in anger or frustration but in "devotion" to God, then that is of course a horrible thing.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    If someone reads Judges 11 and then loses faith because Jephthah sacrificed a random member of his own household - not even in anger or frustration but in "devotion" to God, then that is of course a horrible thing.

    I don't believe Jephthah sacrificed his daughter but she remained a virgin her whole life

    This article gives a reasonable explanation



    http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/d...er-to-god.html

    Notice what the daughter of Jephthah requested after told by her father about the vow he made. She asked, "Let this thing be done for me. Let me alone two months, so that I may go up and down upon the mountains and weep for my virginity, I and my companions" (Judges 11:38).
    The request of the daughter is not only odd but makes no sense IF we assume she understood the vow as costing her life. Why would she ask to mourn her VIRGINITY with her friends instead of desiring to spend the remaining time she had with her mourning father? Verse 39 of Judges 11 tells us that when she came home ". . . her father (Jephthah), who did to her his vow which he had vowed. And she knew no man." The short phrase "And she knew no man" is meaningless if the child (likely a teenager) would soon be offered as a sacrifice to God.

  3. #13
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    The most reasonable conclusion given all the facts and what the BIBLE says is that Jephthah did not sacrifice his daughter as a burnt offering. Instead, he consecrated her as a perpetual virgin in the service of the Lord. This is why she mourned not the ending of her life, but the loss of being able to marry. What ultimately happened fulfilled the vow that whoever came out of the house of Jephthah would 'belong to' or be dedicated to serving God.

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  5. #14
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Making a vow and not follow through is a serious sin but committing human sacrifice is a far worse sin so God would not expect Jephthah to sacrifice a human

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    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Making a vow and not follow through is a serious sin but committing human sacrifice is a far worse sin so God would not expect Jephthah to sacrifice a human
    But they were serious about their vows and keeping their word back then. Nothing like today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I don't believe Jephthah sacrificed his daughter but she remained a virgin her whole life

    This article gives a reasonable explanation



    http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/d...er-to-god.html
    There's no way that she would want to spend time with her father who was going to kill her. The reason for mourning her virginity was that she would die without having born children.

    Judges 11:39 And it became a custom in Israel
    40 that the daughters of Israel went four days each year to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

    That's pretty extreme if all Jephthah did was keep his daughter a virgin. It was within his power to begin with and something Paul recommended that people would do in 1 Cor 7 :

    1 Cor 7:37 Nevertheless he who stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so determined in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. 38 So then he who gives her in marriage does well, but he who does not give her in marriage does better.

    Take a look at the entry in the Jewish encyclopedia :

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar.../8584-jephthah

  9. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    But they were serious about their vows and keeping their word back then. Nothing like today.
    Right and the vow he spoke was :

    Judges 11:30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, “If You will indeed deliver the people of Ammon into my hands,
    31 then it will be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord’s, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering.”

    This was his daughter's response :

    11:36 So she said to him, “My father, if you have given your word to the Lord, do to me according to what has gone out of your mouth, because the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the people of Ammon.”
    37 Then she said to her father, “Let this thing be done for me: let me alone for two months, that I may go and wander on the mountains and bewail my virginity, my friends and I.”

    She tells him to do according to "what has gone out of his mouth" which involved offering someone as a burnt offering. Interpreting verse 37 to mean that he would now make her a perpetual virgin is a direct contradiction of verse 36 because that implies that he was now to do according to what she spoke rather than according to what "what had gone out his mouth". That interpretation is nothing more than wishful thinking. This doesn't mean that what Jephthah did had anything whatsoever to do with the will of God. Quite the contrary, it's an example of people sinning horribly in the OT while the Spirit was upon them, just like Samson was a week in the harlot's house while the Spirit was still upon him.

  10. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Making a vow and not follow through is a serious sin but committing human sacrifice is a far worse sin so God would not expect Jephthah to sacrifice a human
    You mean God wouldn't accept it ? God wouldn't accept Samson's spending a week in the harlot's house either but God didn't reject him until he had told the harlot about his Nazirite vow thinking arrogantly that he would keep his powers even so.

    The book of Judges is summed up in the last verse :

    Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

    That was the general state of affairs from after Joshua and the elders around him had died and until Samuel became prophet and judge, a period of several hundred years.

  11. #19
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    This Rabbi doesn't believe the daughter was sacrificed

    https://thetorah.com/did-jephthah-ac...-his-daughter/

  12. #20
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    This Rabbi doesn't believe the daughter was sacrificed

    https://thetorah.com/did-jephthah-ac...-his-daughter/
    I find it more likely that Jephthah was confused about which God he was serving and how. In Judges 17-21 we see some very confused people who are serving other gods but also God but then in their own manner. Sacrificing people (even own children) to Moloch was common at the time and Jephthah may have transferred this over to his service rendered to God. It seems very unlikely that an animal would be the first to come out and "greet" Jephthah, the Jews didn't keep pets and farm animals (some of which they did actually keep in their own house) don't do that. It's more likely that he thought that one of his slaves would come out to greet him and even according to the law of Moses it was permissable to mistreat slaves as long as they didn't die from the mistreatment, at least if they didn't die the same day.

    Recall that the daughter was his only child and the Jews tended to dedicate their own children to God and not their other relatives or slaves. Manoah and his wife dedicated Samson to God through the Nazirite vow, Hannah dedicated Samuel to God and he served in the tabernacle under Eli. A dedication would fit his daughter but it is abundantly clear that he did not have his daughter in mind for this alleged dedication.

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