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Thread: Jim Caviezel: New 'Passion of the Christ' to be 'biggest film in history'

  1. #21
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Compared to the Pharisees and the Scribes, the Sadducees are not mentioned in the context of persecuting Jesus but they are mentioned in the book of Acts in relation to the new teaching of the resurrection of Jesus. Which makes sense since they were the ones that didn't believe in the general resurrection :

    Acts 4:1 Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them,
    2 being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

    The Sadducees are mentioned in the context of the high priest. I'm not sure what their exact relation was other than that they were in general priests (though priests could also be Pharisees or Scribes) :

    Acts 5:17 Then the high priest rose up, and all those who were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with indignation,
    18 and laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison.

  2. #22
    Tehilah,
    I do understand the concern, that some hairbrained numbskull reacts to the Jewish participation in Jesus death as a lame excuse to hate Jews, or get stirred up to elevate anti-Jewish activities.

    I recall that the Bible verse about Jesus "blood be on our children" was taken out of the Passion to try and mitigate that type of thing.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Tehilah Ba'Aretz's Avatar
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    So true, there are some real numbskulls out there.
    Look, I understand that for about 2,000 years Christians have been blaming the Jews for the death of Jesus. I get that. The thing I'm saying is that the couple hundred Jews who cried out to Pilat that they accepted the blame for the death of Jesus are not capable of claiming that blame for all Jews or even all Pharisees for all time. And Jesus didn't agree to that either.
    Of course, I know that there are scriptures that record the hatred of the mobs, stirred up by the Pharisees. But the facts are not that difficult to find. Jesus lived among the Pharisees, not the Sadducees. He corrected them repeatedly and that made them furious. They did not believe His claims nor were they impressed with His miracles. That is a fine description of pride, isn't it?
    Paul/Saul did not deny being a Pharisee and he didn't think it was either evil or a sin. Instead he claimed that he was following Jesus and attempting to set an example that was like Jesus.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehilah Ba'Aretz View Post
    So true, there are some real numbskulls out there.
    Look, I understand that for about 2,000 years Christians have been blaming the Jews for the death of Jesus. I get that. The thing I'm saying is that the couple hundred Jews who cried out to Pilat that they accepted the blame for the death of Jesus are not capable of claiming that blame for all Jews or even all Pharisees for all time. And Jesus didn't agree to that either.
    Of course, I know that there are scriptures that record the hatred of the mobs, stirred up by the Pharisees. But the facts are not that difficult to find. Jesus lived among the Pharisees, not the Sadducees. He corrected them repeatedly and that made them furious. They did not believe His claims nor were they impressed with His miracles. That is a fine description of pride, isn't it?
    Paul/Saul did not deny being a Pharisee and he didn't think it was either evil or a sin. Instead he claimed that he was following Jesus and attempting to set an example that was like Jesus.
    But Paul did consider it "rubbish" :

    Phil 3:4 If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:
    5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
    6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
    7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
    8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
    9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

    He describes himself as a Pharisee who was blameless according to the law and full of zeal as demonstrated by his persecution of Christians. We know that both are rubbish, righteousness could not be gained by following the law and his zeal was not according to God.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Compared to the Pharisees and the Scribes, the Sadducees are not mentioned in the context of persecuting Jesus but they are mentioned in the book of Acts in relation to the new teaching of the resurrection of Jesus. Which makes sense since they were the ones that didn't believe in the general resurrection :

    Acts 4:1 Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them,
    2 being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

    The Sadducees are mentioned in the context of the high priest. I'm not sure what their exact relation was other than that they were in general priests (though priests could also be Pharisees or Scribes) :

    Acts 5:17 Then the high priest rose up, and all those who were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with indignation,
    18 and laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison.
    The high and chief priests are of course mentioned in the context of persecution against Jesus. The priests were mainly Sadducees but some of them were Pharisees or Scribes. But the Sadducees as such aren't singled out until the book of Acts. There are also mentions of "the elders" but I'm not sure if those were particularly or specifically religious.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    We are all responsible for the death of Jesus. He died for OUR sins. Scripture does declare that it was through the hands of the Jews and Romans that the will of God was carried out in this matter. Therefore, Gentiles and Jews are guilty of the blood of Jesus.

    27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

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  8. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    We are all responsible for the death of Jesus. He died for OUR sins. Scripture does declare that it was through the hands of the Jews and Romans that the will of God was carried out in this matter. Therefore, Gentiles and Jews are guilty of the blood of Jesus.

    That's exactly what I was trying to point out from that passage of Scripture...


    Acts 4:27 (KJV)
    For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,


    Acts 4:26-27 (YLT)
    (26) the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ;
    (27) for gathered together of a truth against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, were both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with nations and peoples of Israel,




    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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  10. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    We are all responsible for the death of Jesus. He died for OUR sins. Scripture does declare that it was through the hands of the Jews and Romans that the will of God was carried out in this matter. Therefore, Gentiles and Jews are guilty of the blood of Jesus.


    This is true but we have to use ALL scriptures to understand how God saw responsibility.

    Jesus himself said to Pontius Pilate
    John 19:11 - Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.

    Even though gentiles have used this WRONGFULLY to persecute Jews we cannot dismiss scripture that God holds the Jews more responsible. Jesus preached to Jewish people not to gentiles.
    His miracles were to Jews, they saw him in the flesh, heard him preach and saw the miracles. We thank God for the early Jewish believers who lead the way and brought the gospel to the gentiles.

    But eventually most of Israel rejected Jesus hence the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.
    God also punishes the gentiles but since the Jews were his people and Jesus manifested as a Jew there is more accountability.

    The same thing applies with Adam & Eve. Both sinned but God blames the man FIRST and holds him ultimately responsible. Eve's sin was secondary.
    As a male I have to accept this and not attempt to hold women equally responsible. Does that mean I hate men because I hold men responsible???

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  12. #29
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    This is true but we have to use ALL scriptures to understand how God saw responsibility.

    Jesus himself said to Pontius Pilate
    John 19:11 - Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.

    Even though gentiles have used this WRONGFULLY to persecute Jews we cannot dismiss scripture that God holds the Jews more responsible. Jesus preached to Jewish people not to gentiles.
    His miracles were to Jews, they saw him in the flesh, heard him preach and saw the miracles. We thank God for the early Jewish believers who lead the way and brought the gospel to the gentiles.

    But eventually most of Israel rejected Jesus hence the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.
    God also punishes the gentiles but since the Jews were his people and Jesus manifested as a Jew there is more accountability.

    The same thing applies with Adam & Eve. Both sinned but God blames the man FIRST and holds him ultimately responsible. Eve's sin was secondary.
    As a male I have to accept this and not attempt to hold women equally responsible. Does that mean I hate men because I hold men responsible???
    Some claim that there were as many as 100,000 believers in Jerusalem at one time. Those came to be known as Christians rather than as Jesus-believing Jews so the ones that remained Jews by name were naturally those that either rejected Jesus or didn't hear much about him. It's the same today, Messianic Jews usually don't call themselves Jews after their Christian faith has been passed down through several generations. I wish they had done that, then we would probably have more Messianic Jews than non-Messianic Jews today but that is not how it works.

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  14. #30
    When I was in Israel a friend and myself had a God encounter with 2 secular Jews and we shared the gospel for quite a while. They were amazed how us non Jews loved Israel and we told them all the blessings we have through Israel and the Bible.

    Of course we don't point the finger and blame them for Jesus' death but we concentrate on God's love and how he sent a Jewish messiah.

    They told us they despised many things in Israel including the govt and religious Jews. They saw Israel as a modern day oppressor of non Jews in Israel.

    We could see they were brainwashed by leftist ideology and it was ironic that 2 gentiles were defending Israel to secular Jews.
    Their hearts were definitely softened by what we said and I trust that in the further both will accept Jesus as their Messiah.

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