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  1. #21
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Right.. no one can break that seal except the one sealed....

    He clearly rejects the idea that we are saved without our will or that we break the seal without our will, by accident...by some unrecognized or momentary lapse of the flesh or the soul...that God never rejects US...but that we can choose to reject HIM..
    My implication was that we cannot break the seal ourselves even. But God (the Holy Spirit) himself can "break" it by choosing to depart from the person, rendering him seal-less. And he will do that if the person no longer continues in the faith.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    My implication was that we cannot break the seal ourselves even. But God (the Holy Spirit) himself can "break" it by choosing to depart from the person, rendering him seal-less. And he will do that if the person no longer continues in the faith.
    I do not....Quenching the Spirit is rejecting Him ..may be semantics but I do not believe the Holy Spirit ever leaves by choice...that He is adamantly rejected and no longer has any faith from the occupant to stay

  3. #23
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    I do not....Quenching the Spirit is rejecting Him ..may be semantics but I do not believe the Holy Spirit ever leaves by choice...that He is adamantly rejected and no longer has any faith from the occupant to stay
    And I believe that is the POV that Womack holds as he too believes God will never break the seal...but that grace and faith must both be present for HIM to stay.

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  5. #24
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    So you mean that the Holy Spirit always refuses to leave but finds himself forced to leave because of an absence of faith ?

    The verses that describe apostasy make God's involvement active rather than passive as you suggest.

    Matt 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also*deny*before My Father who is in heaven.

    Rom 11:20 Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.*
    21*For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.*
    22*Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in*His*goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

    The latter passage is very clear because it discusses someone who shares in the lifegiving sap from the root, which is the Holy Spirit. Then he is cut off and thereby separated from the sap, because of unbelief. It's not that the flow of sap is restricted, it's rather an act of separation done by the one who owns the root from where the sap flows. God is the one said not to spare the branch.

  6. #25
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Here's another verse that discusses how the presence of the Spirit functions as a seal of salvation.

    Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

    Which necessitates that His life is in us. Insofar as it continues to be in us, salvation is assured.

  7. #26
    I consider AW is a solid and sound teacher as I have observed him over the years. As GIMJ implicated, he has an in-depth biblical-based understanding of how grace works.

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  9. #27
    * Toxic Troll - Negative Nancy Farm Truck's Avatar
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    I have wondered if he believes in the false doctrine that Jesus had to be born again
    You should educate yourself concerning what God's Word teachings on this subject... Adam was the first man to be changed from life to death... Jesus was the first man to be changed from death to life. The wages of sin is death (being separated from God) according to what the Lord told Adam in the garden which would be the result of eating of the tree God told them not to eat from.

    According to what God said in the book of Genesis, His definition of death is to be separated from Him.

    Colossians 1:18
    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    This could not be referring to just physical death because other people had died before Jesus did and were brought back to life...

    Elisha resurrected the son of the Shunammite woman (2 Kings 4:35), Jesus resurrects the widow's son at Nain (Luke 7:13-15), Jesus raises Jairus' daughter from the dead (Matthew 9:25), Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead (John 11:43-44)... ans example references.

    If Jesus only died physically then either Colossians 1:18 is a lie... or all these other scriptures references are lies... which is it?

    Does God's Word contradict itself, or does it not? Or... do other scriptures references point to Jesus suffering something more than just physical death???

    2 Corinthians 5:21
    For He has made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

    Isaiah 53:8
    By oppression and judgment He was taken away; and as for His generation, who considered
    that He was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of My people


    Isaiah 53:10-12
    Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (spirit is inside the soul) an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death (separation from God): and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


    Matthew 12:40
    For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Psalms 86:13
    For great is thy mercy toward Me: and thou hast delivered My soul (spirit is inside the soul) from the lowest hell.

    Psalms 16:10
    For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    (Corruption = becoming defective in thinking, viewpoint, vision... Jesus never lost faith or knowledge of Who He was... nor did satan beat him up like Copeland teaches since satan is not in hell yet.)

    1 Timothy 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    WHY did Jesus have to be “justified in the spirit?” if He had not been separated from God which is the definition of ‘death‘ according to what God told Adam in the Garden of Eden would happen if he ate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil… in that day Adam surely died but not physically (Adam lived over 900 years) meaning God was referring to spiritual death which is being cut off from the life of God.

    Since Adam became separated from the life of God, Jesus had to come and undo what Adam did, so Jesus had to have been separated from the life of God… so God could raise Him from the dead and justify Him from death so all that would be in Christ could also be raised from death.

    In order to believe Jesus only suffered physically, one must ignore numerous scriptural references and count them to be lies... which is what cherry pickers do as they refuse to accept all of God's counsel.

  10. #28
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farm Truck View Post
    You should educate yourself concerning what God's Word teachings on this subject... Adam was the first man to be changed from life to death... Jesus was the first man to be changed from death to life. The wages of sin is death (being separated from God) according to what the Lord told Adam in the garden which would be the result of eating of the tree God told them not to eat from.

    According to what God said in the book of Genesis, His definition of death is to be separated from Him.

    Colossians 1:18
    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    This could not be referring to just physical death because other people had died before Jesus did and were brought back to life...

    Elisha resurrected the son of the Shunammite woman (2 Kings 4:35), Jesus resurrects the widow's son at Nain (Luke 7:13-15), Jesus raises Jairus' daughter from the dead (Matthew 9:25), Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead (John 11:43-44)... ans example references.

    If Jesus only died physically then either Colossians 1:18 is a lie... or all these other scriptures references are lies... which is it?

    Does God's Word contradict itself, or does it not? Or... do other scriptures references point to Jesus suffering something more than just physical death???

    2 Corinthians 5:21
    For He has made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

    Isaiah 53:8
    By oppression and judgment He was taken away; and as for His generation, who considered
    that He was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of My people


    Isaiah 53:10-12
    Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (spirit is inside the soul) an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death (separation from God): and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


    Matthew 12:40
    For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Psalms 86:13
    For great is thy mercy toward Me: and thou hast delivered My soul (spirit is inside the soul) from the lowest hell.

    Psalms 16:10
    For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    (Corruption = becoming defective in thinking, viewpoint, vision... Jesus never lost faith or knowledge of Who He was... nor did satan beat him up like Copeland teaches since satan is not in hell yet.)

    1 Timothy 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    WHY did Jesus have to be “justified in the spirit?” if He had not been separated from God which is the definition of ‘death‘ according to what God told Adam in the Garden of Eden would happen if he ate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil… in that day Adam surely died but not physically (Adam lived over 900 years) meaning God was referring to spiritual death which is being cut off from the life of God.

    Since Adam became separated from the life of God, Jesus had to come and undo what Adam did, so Jesus had to have been separated from the life of God… so God could raise Him from the dead and justify Him from death so all that would be in Christ could also be raised from death.

    In order to believe Jesus only suffered physically, one must ignore numerous scriptural references and count them to be lies... which is what cherry pickers do as they refuse to accept all of God's counsel.
    That is what you believe, but what does AW believe.

  11. #29
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Andrew's POV is very close to William Young who wrote The Shack...that is why he gets falsely accused of being a universalist...

  12. #30
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Andrew's POV is very close to William Young who wrote The Shack...that is why he gets falsely accused of being a universalist...
    A simple google search revealed Wommack's 100% rejection of universalism (see below). A simple google search does not come up with a similar quote for Young.
    Young needs to be as CLEAR and PRECISE as Wommack as the subject is too important.


    http://www.awmi.net/reading/teaching.../hell_reality/

    I’ve been appalled at the doctrine of “ultimate reconciliation,” or “universalism,” that has crept into the body of Christ today. This doctrine teaches that God will ultimately reconcile everyone to Himself, even the devil and those in hell. Some variations of this say that hell is only a state of mind and not a real place or that those in hell will only suffer punishment for a limited time. Nothing could be further from the truth.

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