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Thread: Are Romans 10:11 & 10:13 false scriptures?

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    It may look like firmer ground but its quicksand

    Your sovereign God ORDAINS the rape of 12 year old girls.......my sovereign God never ordains it but allows it to happen because of mans evil choices
    Sorry, but that seems to me to be double-talk. First off, I said above that in the case of Job God didn't cause it, He allowed it. Same would be true of the rape of a 12 year old. But if we say that God in His sovereignty either allows or doesn't allow something, then we are admitting what I've been saying all along. God determines the events (by allowing or not allowing them) and He also determines the desired outcome.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    I read your post 33 but went back to here because so far all I see is you defending YOUR POV and not actually responding to what I said...
    OK, not sure if this is the type of answer you want and it is long. Anyhow ...

    I was talking about "the idea that God made the universe with absolutely no idea before hand as to how it would turn out ... and then had to look down time to find out what was going to happen with his creation" and part of your response was "we have to accept what scripture says" (post #7) so lets work off that.

    We built one of the four houses we've lived in. Before a sod of dirt was turned it was planned out in detail even to the light switch being in a poor place because we moved a door. What we didn't do was hire some tradies and say "Go ahead and build our house" and let them go do what they liked intervening as necessary to end up with the house we wanted. [see the parallel?]

    Also sometimes I try not to follow tangents. Why? Consider the discussion on how our spirit is created. Scripture says nothing but someone had and idea and tried to make some scriptures support the idea. Trouble was the idea was in conflict with the Doctrine of Original Sin settled 1600 years ago, and rather than acknowledge that the first idea must be wrong the person made up a new doctrine but still called it the Doctrine of Original Sin and then argued that he still believed in Original Sin. The trouble with tangents is that if we don't correct ourself we may keep going further off track.

    OK, what does the Bible say?

    It says that God is the beginning and the end.
    It says our days are numbered and written in His book.
    It says He wrote our names in His book before the creation of the world - indicates pre planning
    It says that He prepared things for us to do beforehand - again indicating planning.

    So where do we go with the idea that God made the universe with no idea before hand as to how it would turn out and it limiting His sovereignty if He couldn't do it? Well (1) it contradicts what Scripture says happened and (2) it contradicts His nature as explained in the Doctrine of His Omniscience (i.e. that He knows everything) so it isn't possible.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    Sorry, but that seems to me to be double-talk. First off, I said above that in the case of Job God didn't cause it, He allowed it. Same would be true of the rape of a 12 year old. But if we say that God in His sovereignty either allows or doesn't allow something, then we are admitting what I've been saying all along. God determines the events (by allowing or not allowing them) and He also determines the desired outcome.

    The is still a difference which you don't understand. Because God allows something it does not mean he determines the event. It may be small but it is big in regard to Gods character.

    Example
    If your loved ones got a serious disease you would determine God allowed it and if you really believed that then you should refuse all medical treatment because you are going against Gods will. Since you referred to Job then you have to agree Job was supernaturally healed and didn't have medical intervention so you should only accept a supernatural healing and not a medical one.

    If my loved one got a serious disease I would say God allowed it but he didn't want it to happen so would do what is needed spiritually and naturally to see them healed.


    I can guarantee if your grandchildren got seriously ill you would fight tooth and nail to see them healed. Would you even bother to ask God if it was his will for them to die or to suffer for years and then you could explain that to them and their parents.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    Once again, God is sovereign or He isn't...despite Colonel's insistence on what I see as redefining "sovereignty."
    Under the definitions of the English word sovereignty you will find nowhere the idea that the sovereign entity has to apply absolute control or that the sovereign entity has to control things to the point where the situation ends up being exactly like the sovereign entity would want things to be.

    To remain sovereign within its realm, the sovereign entity has to successfully thwart every attempt at usurping its authority. Authority as in ability to apply control at will. This applies to sovereign kings or nations, within their realms. I'm not so sure that it is even possible to usurp God's authority as it would require making him unable to apply control when he chooses to apply it. Maybe Satan thought that he could accomplish that in some way, but he didn't.

    As long as the sovereign entity retains authority, the state of affairs within the realm do not matter to the fact that the entity remains sovereign. His subjects may complain that the sovereign is exercising his authority in an improper manner but that is a different matter. Normally one would expect a sovereign to exercise his authority to the point where there is a minimum of law and order present in the realm. If not then the sovereign is appearing to be a sovereign in name only. In God's case the Bible tells us that he is exercising this minimum in the sense that people will only live for a short while on the Earth and then they will be judged for their actions and the judgment will be eternal. Angels are also included in his judgments, in fact there is nothing that isn't.

    The state of affairs here on Earth during the short duration that it will exist in its present condition is a different matter again. In relation to the duration of God's kingdom, which is eternal and therefore infinite, the state of affairs here only lasts for a short while. It is perfectly reasonable for a sovereign entity to let things develop for a while without interfering at all and only later apply control to force things to get more in line with the sovereign's wishes. Especially if he has issued a decree concerning what amounts to proper conduct for his subjects. So basically we cannot expect of God that he does anything at all during this short duration. Does he ? Yes, but just like final judgment takes place according to certain criteria, his actions here follow certain criteria. Like righteous standing, faith, communion (which includes prayer) etc. God has issued the mentioned decrees too, both at the level of the conscience of all men and also in written form.

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  6. #85
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    The is still a difference which you don't understand. Because God allows something it does not mean he determines the event. It may be small but it is big in regard to Gods character.

    Example
    If your loved ones got a serious disease you would determine God allowed it and if you really believed that then you should refuse all medical treatment because you are going against Gods will. Since you referred to Job then you have to agree Job was supernaturally healed and didn't have medical intervention so you should only accept a supernatural healing and not a medical one.

    If my loved one got a serious disease I would say God allowed it but he didn't want it to happen so would do what is needed spiritually and naturally to see them healed.


    I can guarantee if your grandchildren got seriously ill you would fight tooth and nail to see them healed. Would you even bother to ask God if it was his will for them to die or to suffer for years and then you could explain that to them and their parents.
    If disease is a matter of God exercising his sovereignty in an unconditional manner then any attempt at stalling the disease would amount to an attempt at thwarting his will. This is where Calvinists will typically think of their working against God's having given them that disease as exercising their free will within God's sovereignty and if they succeed then God's sovereignty allowed for that and the end result was God's will. In reality this is more like manipulation, the creature seeks to alter God's sovereign action until God has to accept that their being disease free was his real sovereign intention. The same way Calvinist evangelists preach the gospel fervently, reasoning that more people will be among the elect than if they don't and it's really a matter of manipulating God until he has to accept that that population group has more elect people in it than would otherwise have been the case. Some have tried the opposite thing, failing to preach to people they don't like, hoping that they will end up being mostly nonelect.
    Working against an allegedly God given disease is a clearer case of manipulation though. The reasonable course of action would be to let things simply take their course and if there is natural recovery or an act of divine intervention then that meant that it was God's will that one would eventually recover.

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  8. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    If your loved ones got a serious disease you would determine God allowed it and if you really believed that then you should refuse all medical treatment because you are going against Gods will.
    Why? God has told us that if someone gets sick pray for them (amongst other things).

    It could also be to test your faith.
    It could also be to teach you to pray.
    It could also be to put you in a position to talk about Jesus to the doctors.
    It could also be to prepare you for something even worse.
    It could also be to stretch you finances so that you can't do something later on, or to do it need to rely on God.
    It could be lots of things ...

    I put some fish in a BBQ at 350C today which should burn it up. However I only left it in 15 mins or so so instead it was cooked. Meanwhile the potato in the oven became chips.

    King David personally killed many and controlled armies that killed heaps more, but the reason he did what was bad for those people and their nation was to provide peace for his nation.

    We live in a continium that started in Gen 1 with the creation of the universe in literally six days and each thing that happens is leading up to the final judgement and the seperation of man into those of us in heaven eternally experiencing the grace of God and those in hell eternally experiencing the wrath of God.

    Even though we don't understand them, and may never do, we can't just take things in isolation. But that which we don't understand (and God doesn't explain to us) we have to take knowing that God knows what He is doing. That takes faith.

  9. #87
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Why? God has told us that if someone gets sick pray for them (amongst other things)
    That doesn't mean that the verse in question makes any sense in relation to Calvinism. Why bother to pray when God's sovereign will comes to pass regardless ? Are you trying to alter his sovereign will ? Meaning it would have turned out as being different if you didn't pray ?

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  11. #88
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    I put some fish in a BBQ at 350C today which should burn it up. However I only left it in 15 mins or so so instead it was cooked. Meanwhile the potato in the oven became chips.

    Well that explains everything....may as well throw in all the Bible Classes I did and hours of study

    If only they taught me to cook fish and potatoes at Bible College

  12. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That doesn't mean that the verse in question makes any sense in relation to Calvinism. ?
    Of course it does, the whole Bible is relevant and makes sense. You don't really know Calvinism and you are afraid to really learn about it.

  13. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Well that explains everything....may as well throw in all the Bible Classes I did and hours of study

    If only they taught me to cook fish and potatoes at Bible College
    Well Jesus spoke in parables so that certain people would not understand. Guess it can still happen.

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