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Thread: Interesting take on the prosperity doctrine...

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Yes but that typically doesn't include persecution.
    Right...when it comes to suffering one has to be specific on what type of suffering is being addressed...some say they are suffering for Christ because their kids are away from the Lord, or because they are sick, or because they experience consequences of bad choices...

    BUT I would add that because they believe everyone should be rich they obviously viewed some level of financial lack. Paul stated he had had plenty and suffered lack and in all learned to be content..he had obviously had times when he was physically harmed and times when he was hungry..at sea for 3 days meant no food or water I would think..

    So to get the whole truth we have to teach those realities along with the passages on prosperity and faith...

    So I guess even persecutions need to be expanded in definition to include times of lack and physical suffering...

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    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Yes but that typically doesn't include persecution.
    depends on where u r at. maybe not here n america so much but there r many other places that suffer intense persecution. and don't forget there are other types of suffering including sickness, finances, oppression and so on... suffering comes n many forms....

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeze View Post
    depends on where u r at. maybe not here n america so much but there r many other places that suffer intense persecution. and don't forget there are other types of suffering including sickness, finances, oppression and so on... suffering comes n many forms....
    Those are forms of suffering but I believe we are talking about suffering for Christ's sake and the gospel. In that suffering I don't see any scripture that implies sickness is in that category.

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    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Those are forms of suffering but I believe we are talking about suffering for Christ's sake and the gospel. In that suffering I don't see any scripture that implies sickness is in that category.
    i dont know quest.... i mite disagree with u there. i know folks who contracted malaria and other diseases from missions work... that is sickness is it not? is that not suffering 4 Christ?

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeze View Post
    depends on where u r at. maybe not here n america so much but there r many other places that suffer intense persecution. and don't forget there are other types of suffering including sickness, finances, oppression and so on... suffering comes n many forms....
    My point is that they would typically teach that there is release from all forms of suffering except that which comes about as a direct result of standing up for the name of Christ - real persecution. Which I agree with.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeze View Post
    i dont know quest.... i mite disagree with u there. i know folks who contracted malaria and other diseases from missions work... that is sickness is it not? is that not suffering 4 Christ?
    No it's not. Being in the same environment without doing any missionary work would have produced the same result. Being beaten for doing missionary work would qualify as persecution. Suffering at sea as Quest mentioned because one is a prisoner because one is being persecuted for one's faith would qualify. Persecution is something one suffers at the hands of men and as a reaction to standing up for the gospel.

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeze View Post
    i dont know quest.... i mite disagree with u there. i know folks who contracted malaria and other diseases from missions work... that is sickness is it not? is that not suffering 4 Christ?
    That's a great example! And takes the discussion to a new level...I would say that while contracting it, along with other like aids or leprosy are risks but we are promised healing by faith. For instance Paul was beaten and left for dead and literally got up and walked away..and bitten by a snake and shook it off and lived. It seems that there are promises of protection and power when we are in service. I also believe many don't know how to walk in that level of faith...Paul was in that level...so while he was at sea for 3 days and nights and beaten as I noted earlier, he never mentions sickness or disease in his list.

    Mark 16 says these signs shall follow them that believe...they shall lay hands on the sick..I dn't believe God intends for us to get sick but when or if we do He has made provision for our healing..

    Thinking about Paul at sea...God had warned the sailors not to leave port yet and they went anyway..God told them to through everything overboard..that they would live but ship and cargo would be lost...so while Paul was in the water he understood it was due to the rebellion of others and that he would be kept safe to go to Rome.

    Paul understood that no matter what he encountered his mission would succeed ...Paul was a man who demonstrated extraordinary faith and vision.
    When we are suffering something our greatest weakness is our lack of vision...IMHO

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    My point is that they would typically teach that there is release from all forms of suffering except that which comes about as a direct result of standing up for the name of Christ - real persecution. Which I agree with.
    Yes, I knew some believed that...I knew better and did not buy into it. Some seemed to believe that as Son's of the King we were going to be exempt.

    Jesus made a statement that 'in this world you will have tribulation but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.' I don't believe the sufferings for Christ can disrupt our mission as long as we walk THROUGH them in faith to be victorious on the other side of them...in some cases that was death at the hands of God's enemies...Stephen being one key example..His VISION enabled him to be victorious as he was being stoned...victorious as he was not afraid and he prayed for his killers in love...

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    On CARM, I discussed Paul's tribulations a lot. I came to the conclusion that they involved what came about as a direct result of his being persecuted by men (who were sometimes in turn motioned by an angel of Satan) specifically for standing up for the name of Jesus. They did not involve anything else. Anything else than that we have release from in the atonement. Including becoming sick because we are preaching in an area where there is malaria etc. God will stop that, according to our faith. I have experienced this myself. He will not necessarily stop men who seek to persecute us for the sake of the name of Jesus. He might but there is no promise to that effect. To the contrary, the reaction of the persecutor becomes part of the contention for and against the gospel, the division between light and darkness. However much faith we have, we will not escape that fully.

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    On CARM, I discussed Paul's tribulations a lot. I came to the conclusion that they involved what came about as a direct result of his being persecuted by men (who were sometimes in turn motioned by an angel of Satan) specifically for standing up for the name of Jesus. They did not involve anything else. Anything else than that we have release from in the atonement. Including becoming sick because we are preaching in an area where there is malaria etc. God will stop that, according to our faith. I have experienced this myself. He will not necessarily stop men who seek to persecute us for the sake of the name of Jesus. He might but there is no promise to that effect. To the contrary, the reaction of the persecutor becomes part of the contention for and against the gospel, the division between light and darkness. However much faith we have, we will not escape that fully.
    Escape and overcoming are not the same thing...overcoming is keeping our eyes on Jesus and maintaining that relationship and continuing to take on His character, not stumble. He was rescued from the water but it does not seem so regarding the prison cell but neither prevented him from fulfilling God's purpose..in fact God used them TO accomplish His plan...

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