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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Ezekiel 33
Actually, if you read chapters 9 through 11 straight through, as Paul was expressing it instead of just picking those 2 "werses" out, it isn't totally ridiculous.
The chapter division between 9 and 10 is good, this is a clear header :
10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
Who is it that needs to be saved, Jewish Christians or Jewish non-Christians ?
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
According to verses 2-3, it is Jewish non-Christians.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Verses 5-7 contrast righteousness according to the law which is what the Jewish non-Christians adhered to, with righteousness according to the gospel.
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Which explains the word of faith (as opposed to the word of the law) mentioned previously.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?
Verses 14-15 refers back to the Jewish non-Christians and discusses the fact that they cannot be saved by calling on him unless they believe and they cannot believe unless they have heard and they cannot hear unless there is a preacher and that preacher must be sent. Someone who already believes is in no need of a preacher to enable him to continue to believe in the message.
There is nothing in the text that suggests that 8-10 talks (exclusively) about people who are already believers. Everything suggest that it is referring to people who do not yet believe, as the default. I cannot imagine how anyone would come up with the idea that it is talking exclusively about people who already believe, unless the motivation is to make sure that there are no scriptures that talk about how to get saved that don't also mention water baptism.
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Super Moderator
Originally Posted by
Ezekiel 33
It is at the 46 minute mark.
Right..in context he is addressing division based on who baptized who...I am under Apolos baptism....or John's baptism.....
Paul is addressing that we are baptized into Christ..not the one doing the baptism...Paul is not saying baptism is irrelevant...but that it must be understood we are not baptized to a denomination or a leader and his theology...
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Quest
Right..in context he is addressing division based on who baptized who...I am under Apolos baptism....or John's baptism.....
Paul is addressing that we are baptized into Christ..not the one doing the baptism...Paul is not saying baptism is irrelevant...but that it must be understood we are not baptized to a denomination or a leader and his theology...
In the next chapter he goes on with narrowing down what the gospel is essentially about.
2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony[a] of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human[b] wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
After shedding baptism in water and excellence of speech and wisdom, he arrives at Jesus Christ, him crucified and faith in him.
That does not imply that everything else is unimportant but it does mean that he has arrived at the bare essentials.
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Super Moderator
Originally Posted by
Colonel
In the next chapter he goes on with narrowing down what the gospel is essentially about.
2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony[a] of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human[b] wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
After shedding baptism in water and excellence of speech and wisdom, he arrives at Jesus Christ, him crucified and faith in him.
That does not imply that everything else is unimportant but it does mean that he has arrived at the bare essentials.
Again, I don't see that Paul was narrowing down to bare essentials when addressing water baptism here...he was addressing perspective OF baptism in regards to following MEN..."that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God"
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Quest
Again, I don't see that Paul was narrowing down to bare essentials when addressing water baptism here...he was addressing perspective OF baptism in regards to following MEN..."that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God"
He uses the same wording in this verse as he does at the beginning of chapter 2 :
1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
If he had been talking exclusively about the practice of baptizing in one's own name then he should have said
"For Christ did not send me to baptize in my own name but to preach the gospel and baptize in the name of Jesus".
As Søndergaard himself points out, there were no chapter divisions in the original text so chapter 2 follows seemlessly from the end of chapter 1 and serves as a conclusion to it.
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Senior Member
I teach that we are saved by grace working through faith in Jesus Christ.
And when we look at the gospel message presented in the book of Acts we see the same thing. In Acts 2 Peter tells them to "Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins..."
And in Acts 8 we see a powerful reminder of this message. Philip preaches Christ to the Ethiopian beginning with Isaiah. The very next words out of the man's mouth are "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" Philip replied; "If you believe with all your heart you may." The man's response was "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." So Philip baptized him.
Here's the thing: If we truly believe (have faith in the fact) that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then the proof would be to obey His teachings/commands. And it was Jesus who said "Whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved." That makes it pretty cut and dried for me.
Recently I have been chewing on the exodus and what a beautiful picture of water baptism the Red Sea crossing is.
The Israelites were in bondage, slaves to a cruel taskmaster. God had Moses lead them to the water, and then take them through the water. Their enemies pursued them, but were washed away in the water, setting them totally free from their bondage. I believe that the NT teaches the same concept when speaking about water baptism. Consequently, when I decided to just simply start doing what I see recorded in the book of Acts while expecting the same results, I do see the same results:
Acts 8:5-8--
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. 6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.
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Senior Member
1 Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
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Super Moderator
Originally Posted by
Colonel
He uses the same wording in this verse as he does at the beginning of chapter 2 :
1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
If he had been talking exclusively about the practice of baptizing in one's own name then he should have said
"For Christ did not send me to baptize in my own name but to preach the gospel and baptize in the name of Jesus".
As Søndergaard himself points out, there were no chapter divisions in the original text so chapter 2 follows seemlessly from the end of chapter 1 and serves as a conclusion to it.
Colonel, the context is clearly following men...whether by proclaiming so-in so- baptized me or enticing words....NOT the significance, or lack thereof, of baptism.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Quest
Colonel, the context is clearly following men...whether by proclaiming so-in so- baptized me or enticing words....NOT the significance, or lack thereof, of baptism.
The context is that too. Just like Romans 10:9-10 can be applied also to Christians who need to maintain their faith and confession in order to be saved into heaven in the end. The theme develops from following men all the way over into the essentials of the gospel from chapter 1 to chapter 2.
Last edited by Colonel; 12-09-2016 at 03:29 PM.
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Administrator
Originally Posted by
Colonel
The context is that too. Just like Romans 10:9-10 can be applied also to Christians who need to maintain their faith and confession in order to be saved into heaven in the end. The theme develops from following men all the way over into the essentials of the gospels from chapter 1 to chapter 2.
Hey Colonel, I'm not up to date on the thread. Could you clearly state for me what it is you are questioning that he is saying? Are you saying that you seem to think he is promoting baptismal regeneration? If you could lay it out for me in one post I would appreciate it.
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