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Super Moderator
Originally Posted by
Colonel
I don't know exactly what happened but in general I think it is bad idea to promote things as extreme miracles when the whole thing is perfectly explainable in terms of the natural, in this case the defibrillator.
Your questions did cause me to pause..but as I said, I don't believe science has the control over life and death. If a person comes back due to the use of this device then I believe God wanted them to..and used doctors to facilitate it, possibly where no one was present to take dominion over death.
Thinking that is, even knowing that it is - is okay. Just don't promote it as such unless it is clear that it was. Then let them deny what really cannot be denied, just like the Pharisees had to in relation to the miracles at the beginning of the book of Acts. In this case all they will see is a bunch of Christians choosing to ascribe the action of the defibrillator to the working of the power of God and then they will think to themselves that "that is the best they've got".
Only a skeptic would question it's promotion I would think..not saying you are a skeptic..
Interesting discussion though...thanks!
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Quest
Only a skeptic would question it's promotion I would think..not saying you are a skeptic..
Interesting discussion though...thanks!
I think anyone who doesn't plain choose to believe it - and certainly any non-believer - will question if that was really a miraculous resurrection if the person revived due to the action of a defibrillator and well within what is perfectly possible in terms of the time frame. Let's be a little bit realistic here.
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Senior Member
I think the "miracle" was (in this instance) the medical personnel ALREADY BEING THERE for someone else, were about to leave, and the crisis happening with the second person..aaaand, in the sense God is ALWAYS in control, aaaaand this happening in a church with praying folk, is why they are saying it's a miracle. Col, did you happen to watch the second video? I think in that one is the justification to why they are calling it a resurrection. (Not saying they haven't stretched the truth a little, but I can certainly understand their viewpoint).
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Senior Member
God's providence saved the man's life, okay, it sounds reasonable to claim that much.
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Super Moderator
Originally Posted by
Colonel
I think anyone who doesn't plain choose to believe it - and certainly any non-believer - will question if that was really a miraculous resurrection if the person revived due to the action of a defibrillator and well within what is perfectly possible in terms of the time frame. Let's be a little bit realistic here.
Doesn't matter Colonel...maybe the church should not try to hard to EXPLAIN God to unbelievers who can't grasp spiritual things because they are carnal..that might be a huge reason it's in the mess it's in today..it has compromised with carnal reasoning in order to persuade unbelievers...
I am wondering because it sounds like YOU believe the machine saved the man and not God who is Lord over the human SPIRIT and soul.
...they cannot make a soul return...that is God's decision..
Do you believe the soul exits the body when it stops functioning or do you believe the soul lingers for awhile giving the medics time to restart the body's heart?
Do you think shocking a physical heart forces the soul back into a body it has left?
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Senior Member
To me, a supernatural miracle doesn't include the intervention of man.
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Super Moderator
Originally Posted by
curly sue
To me, a supernatural miracle doesn't include the intervention of man.
Hmmm...wonder if that proves accurate scripturally...no time to start a new thread but that might make an interesting one..
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Quest
Doesn't matter Colonel...maybe the church should not try to hard to EXPLAIN God to unbelievers who can't grasp spiritual things because they are carnal..that might be a huge reason it's in the mess it's in today..it has compromised with carnal reasoning in order to persuade unbelievers...
I am wondering because it sounds like YOU believe the machine saved the man and not God who is Lord over the human SPIRIT and soul.
...they cannot make a soul return...that is God's decision..
Do you believe the soul exits the body when it stops functioning or do you believe the soul lingers for awhile giving the medics time to restart the body's heart?
Do you think shocking a physical heart forces the soul back into a body it has left?
When an atheist uses a defibrillator on an other atheist and that person revives, does that qualify as a resurrection miracle ?
Using your reasoning, we are all continual miracles because God chooses to continue letting our spirits inhabit our bodies. This is however merely a theological statement and has no value in relation to functioning as a witness for the truthfulness of the gospel, all it does is serve to water down the meaning of the word miracle until it means almost nothing.
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Super Moderator
One thing comes to mind...Exodus 17
10Joshua did as Moses told him, and fought against Amalek; and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. 11So it came about when Moses held his hand up, that Israel prevailed, and when he let his hand down, Amalek prevailed. 12But Moses' hands were heavy. Then they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it; and Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one on one side and one on the other. Thus his hands were steady until the sun set.…
Seems to me man has often been involved in supernatural moves of God...Isn't divine providence supernatural?
I know we think of miracles as absent of all human intervention but is that accurate? The new birth is supernatural yet God uses men to convey the message of salvation the Holy Spirit uses to convict and save...
When people pray for someone and a miracle takes place has not God used human intervention?
Just thinking...
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Super Moderator
Originally Posted by
Colonel
When an atheist uses a defibrillator on an other atheist and that person revives, does that qualify as a resurrection miracle ?
Why not? Does God only do miracles for believers? Your question is not an answer to my question.
Using your reasoning, we are all continual miracles because God chooses to continue letting our spirits inhabit our bodies. This is however merely a theological statement and has no value in relation to functioning as a witness for the truthfulness of the gospel, all it does is serve to water down the meaning of the word miracle until it means almost nothing.
Actually that might be accurate...
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