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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Bookman
We are born with a sin nature. How that sin nature develops as we grow up depends on several factors. One factor is our family life. Many homosexuals grow up in a dysfunctional family with the result that they develop homosexually rather than heterosexually. There's nothing about that fact that contradicts Scripture.
Exchanged, leaving, committing, all those words represent choices, acts. Not merely something developing as if it's merely a dysfunction as in a handicap.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Colonel
Exchanged, leaving, committing, all those words represent choices, acts. Not merely something developing as if it's merely a dysfunction as in a handicap.
Most homosexuals don't even know anything about "exchanging, leaving, or committing" when they're a child...and it's usually as a child that they begin to experience same-sex attractions. Many adult gays can remember back to age 8 or earlier and being same-sex attracted by then. They would have no notion of exchanging anything. It was the way they developed. Approximately 2/3 of lesbians report having been sexually abused as a child. Others remember not bonding with their same-sex parent, but bonding with their opposite sex parent. All this happens as a child and contributes to the sin of homosexuality.
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Senior Member
How we develop is to some degree a function of choices, especially the mental and emotional aspects. Our choices are part of our environmental input.
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Administrator
Originally Posted by
Bookman
Well, in a way you're right. The poison of this world combined with a sin nature can certainly result in all sorts of sinful behaviors. The thing is, we have the antidote to the world's poison. However, a person won't go to a doctor for an antidote if they don't trust that doctor. Neither will poisoned gays who want an antidote to their spiritual poison go to a Christian if they don't trust them. "Distrust" was the number one word gays used to describe their reaction to Christians. I think that has to change. I think if Jesus had caught two men in a tryst instead of a man and woman, His message would have been the same, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."
You're getting the cart before the horse. A person won't go to the doctor if they don't know they're sick. That's the first criteria. You can't get them to listen to the doctor unless they know they're dying and need the remedy. You have to get them to the doctor first. Trust only matters after that. I never go to a doctor unless I know I NEED one. They don't know. Trust is not even a factor if I'm not going to a doctor for a reason.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
fuego
You're getting the cart before the horse. A person won't go to the doctor if they don't know they're sick. That's the first criteria. You can't get them to listen to the doctor unless they know they're dying and need the remedy. You have to get them to the doctor first. Trust only matters after that. I never go to a doctor unless I know I NEED one. They don't know. Trust is not even a factor if I'm not going to a doctor for a reason.
Oh, I agree totally. And convincing a gay person they need a "doctor" is the work of the Holy Spirit. And I know people who were actively gay and the Holy Spirit convicted them. However, in some cases, they dragged their feet in seeking help from a Christian or Christianity due to their distrust of Christians. My message for gays is meant for gays who have been convicted by the Holy Spirit. If a gay person is happy in their gayness, my message isn't for them. With alcoholism and suicide rates so high among gays, I have to believe many are ripe and ready for an encounter with the Lord. But first they must know that we, the church, are FOR them, personally, not against them as individuals. In short, we must show God's love to gay sinners, just as we should with all sinners.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
fuego
You're getting the cart before the horse. A person won't go to the doctor if they don't know they're sick. That's the first criteria. You can't get them to listen to the doctor unless they know they're dying and need the remedy. You have to get them to the doctor first. Trust only matters after that. I never go to a doctor unless I know I NEED one. They don't know. Trust is not even a factor if I'm not going to a doctor for a reason.
Deep down they do know.
Romans 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Rom 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Bookman
Oh, I agree totally. And convincing a gay person they need a "doctor" is the work of the Holy Spirit. And I know people who were actively gay and the Holy Spirit convicted them. However, in some cases, they dragged their feet in seeking help from a Christian or Christianity due to their distrust of Christians. My message for gays is meant for gays who have been convicted by the Holy Spirit. If a gay person is happy in their gayness, my message isn't for them. With alcoholism and suicide rates so high among gays, I have to believe many are ripe and ready for an encounter with the Lord. But first they must know that we, the church, are FOR them, personally, not against them as individuals. In short, we must show God's love to gay sinners, just as we should with all sinners.
The conviction involved is much deeper than just knowing that they stand guilty before God.
John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Colonel
Deep down they do know.
Romans 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Rom 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them
An eight year old child does not know any such thing. Later, as an adult, if conviction comes, then he or she "knows."
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Bookman
"Distrust" was the number one word gays used to describe their reaction to Christians. I think that has to change. I think if Jesus had caught two men in a tryst instead of a man and woman, His message would have been the same, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."
I think the gay issue has partially affected your ability to discern. If you ask most sinners they would say 'distrust' is how they feel about christians
Do you think practising adulterers , thieves, drug addicts, alcoholics who don't want to repent have a different outlook to gay sinners?
The irony of your past posts are your remarks that God sees gay sinners the SAME as other sinners and the church should also see it similar and not make a difference yet you continuously make a difference between gay sins and other sins and make excuses.
My wife and I have prayed many times with our friends whose daughter is a lesbian and can see the grief and heartache it causes them but you seem to want to blame christian.
I don't doubt your past involvement and knowledge in gay issues has given you insight that other beleivers don't have but please do not put ALL gays in the same box and lecture christians who face painful family issues with gay relatives
The daughter has a young son who she willingly lets her parents look after and even influence with christianity.
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Senior Member
Do you think practising adulterers , thieves, drug addicts, alcoholics who don't want to repent have a different outlook to gay sinners?
Yes, I do.
please do not put ALL gays in the same box and lecture christians who face painful family issues with gay relatives
You're right about that. As I said earlier, there are many factors in a child developing homosexually. Family and parents is just one factor and it's not always THE factor. As I also said earlier, in the case of lesbianism, about 2/3 of lesbian women report having been sexually abused as a child. That too is a factor, but of course not all women who were sexually abused become lesbians. It's just another contributing factor.
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