Thread: Americans' Shocking Ignorance About Theology

Originally Posted by fuego

So you're saying if a person has truly been saved, they CAN lose their salvation if they don't persevere?

No

Perseverance of the saints is the doctrine that those who are truly saved will persevere to the end and cannot lose their salvation. It doesn't mean that a person who is truly saved will never lose faith or backslide at any time. But that they will ultimately persevere in faith (in spite of failures) such as not to lose their salvation.

The doctrine of perseverance is rooted in God's unconditional election and predestination. That is, since God is the One who chose and predestined the elect to salvation, therefore the elect will be saved. They might turn away from faith and give appearance of losing their salvation, but if they really are elect they will repent and ultimately return to faith, because God is the One ensuring their salvation.

emphasis mine, see http://www.theopedia.com/perseverance-of-the-saints

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

No

emphasis mine, see http://www.theopedia.com/perseverance-of-the-saints

Right. But femme says that isn't OSAS when it is. If a person is saved they will not lose their salvation. She said it is a warp of POTS. But it isn't.

This is wild There are only two options...either a person an be saved and not go to heaven or they can't not go to heaven....the latter is OSAS regardless of what label it carries...

Originally Posted by fuego

All Calvinists are OSAS. That's where the doctrine is rooted is in Calvinism. Unless you're just spinning it a little to say you aren't when you're really still saying the same thing.

Originally Posted by quest

This is wild There are only two options...either a person an be saved and not go to heaven or they can't not go to heaven....the latter is OSAS regardless of what label it carries...

No, No, No.

The earliest we see the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints put in writing (after the close of Scripture from whence it came) is in the 420's by Augustine "who showed conclusively how divine grace is the only ground of man’s salvation" with the "doctrine ... vindicated officially at the Council of Ephesus (431)". (ref) However it is probably best known as the fifth of the five points of Calvinism that came from the Council of Dordt (1618-1619). As the fifth point it is not stand alone and cannot be treated as such. It is a well thought out, Biblically arguable doctrine that the church has held as valid for sixteen hundred years.

Treating perseverance of the saints as stand-alone has led to a "mind-set (that) goes hand-in-hand with the "easy believism" and "carnal Christianity" so prevalent in the evangelical church today. It is characterized by the trite phrase "once saved, always saved", suggesting that one may continue in a life of willful sin and be confident of salvation because he has made a profession of faith in the past. This goes against biblical exhortations, warnings for final salvation and qualifications of true saving faith." (ref)

My trite rendering of "once saved, always saved" (based on what happens in my church) is "once waved, always saved".

So once again with feeling, I'm not OSAS as it is not the same as Perseverance of the Saints, but to mis-quote Bob Dylan "how many times can a Armenian be told and pretend that he just doesn't hear?"

vindicated officially at the Council of Ephesus

There's your first mistake... listening to catholiks

Those that pray to mary and believe mary is co-savior with Jesus are false teachers and false brethren as they do not adhere to sound doctrine found in God's written Word.

They add to, and take away from God's Word... so they are being led by satan.

Nothing has changed since the Garden of Eden... satan is still trying to claim God's Word is not true.

Originally Posted by Farm Truck

There's your first mistake... listening to catholiks

Then stop quoting the Bible at us Farm Truck. The 66 books of the Bible were identified as such by people of that day, people who identified themselves as being in the "Catholic Church".

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

Then stop quoting the Bible at us Farm Truck. The 66 books of the Bible were identified as such by people of that day, people who identified themselves as being in the "Catholic Church".

Wrong again... the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ is responsible for the content of scripture.
In other words, Jesus wrote the Bible thru numerous writers as His Spirit dictated what was written.

And, if catholiks were true Christians... they would not be adding to and taking away from God's written Word.

God controlled the content of His written Word inspite of men who were not even born again handling the writings after they were written.

I'm understanding now more about where you are coming from... it's all starting to make sense now

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

No, No, No.

The earliest we see the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints put in writing (after the close of Scripture from whence it came) is in the 420's by Augustine "who showed conclusively how divine grace is the only ground of man's salvation" with the "doctrine ... vindicated officially at the Council of Ephesus (431)". (ref) However it is probably best known as the fifth of the five points of Calvinism that came from the Council of Dordt (1618-1619). As the fifth point it is not stand alone and cannot be treated as such. It is a well thought out, Biblically arguable doctrine that the church has held as valid for sixteen hundred years.

Treating perseverance of the saints as stand-alone has led to a "mind-set (that) goes hand-in-hand with the "easy believism" and "carnal Christianity" so prevalent in the evangelical church today. It is characterized by the trite phrase "once saved, always saved", suggesting that one may continue in a life of willful sin and be confident of salvation because he has made a profession of faith in the past. This goes against biblical exhortations, warnings for final salvation and qualifications of true saving faith." (ref)

My trite rendering of "once saved, always saved" (based on what happens in my church) is "once waved, always saved".

So once again with feeling, I'm not OSAS as it is not the same as Perseverance of the Saints, but to mis-quote Bob Dylan "how many times can a Armenian be told and pretend that he just doesn't hear?"

If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc, it's a duck. It's OSAS no matter what kind of spin you put on it. If a person is saved, they cannot lose their salvation. Period. OSAS.

I don't know why Calvinists always spin their answer. If you believe in OSAS, you believe in it. No point in trying to say you don't while saying you do by explaining it some other way that proves that you do.

Yeah, like man up dude and stand up for what you believe... regardless of whether it is scriptural or not

A simple question, yes or no: Can a person who is truly saved lose their salvation?