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Thread: I'm far from a universalist, but....

  1. #11
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I think if were called upon to defend this man in the courts of heaven, I would argue that he was given a choice to stand with the people of God or stand with the slayers of God's people...and he chose to stand with God's people.
    Well I mean come on. That isn't that big of a deal per se. There are many good deeds unbelievers do that equate to that or even 'better'. To equate that with God saving them because of that IS salvation by works. Not saying God couldn't make exceptions per se, I don't really know, but probably countless deeds happen like this all over the world all the time that you never hear about. Soldiers and policemen put their lives on the line all the time. So do many others. Now we have a special category of salvation, protecting others/Chrisitans from death? I don't get it.

    I would have posted this story but I sure wouldn't have taken your angle with it, basically trying to 'except' the most basic tenet of salvation just because a guy protected some Christians.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Well I mean come on. That isn't that big of a deal per se. There are many good deeds unbelievers do that equate to that or even 'better'. To equate that with God saving them because of that IS salvation by works. Not saying God couldn't make exceptions per se, I don't really know, but probably countless deeds happen like this all over the world all the time that you never hear about. Soldiers and policemen put their lives on the line all the time. So do many others. Now we have a special category of salvation, protecting others/Chrisitans from death? I don't get it.

    I would have posted this story but I sure wouldn't have taken your angle with it, basically trying to 'except' the most basic tenet of salvation just because a guy protected some Christians.
    Oh, I know you're right, Fuego. In my opening post I made it clear I know the only way to salvation is through Christ, not good works of any kind. I'm just reacting in my humanity, hoping this man's choice reflected a heart predisposed to accept the gospel and that he heard it before he passed.

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    Quest (01-22-2016)

  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Did he or was it just because they were people?

    Anyway as you know we're not saved by works so how could you argue works in the court of heaven?
    I can't. I know that. I still can call the guy a hero and hope he heard the gospel.

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    Quest (01-22-2016)

  6. #14
    I fully believe that Our Righteous, Holy God made a way for that man to hear the Gospel before he died.

    Not because of works, but because of faith.

    True Faith reflects a man's heart for God.

    Consider Rahab...

    Hebrews 11:31
    By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

    James 2:25
    Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

    and Corneilus...

    Acts 10:1-2
    (1) There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
    (2) A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway...
    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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    FaithfulOne (01-21-2016)

  8. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by GodismyJudge View Post
    ...
    From what I read the distinction was Muslim / non-Muslim, and the guy would have done the same be they Hindus or Buddhist or whatever.

  9. #16
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    Oh, I know you're right, Fuego. In my opening post I made it clear I know the only way to salvation is through Christ, not good works of any kind. I'm just reacting in my humanity, hoping this man's choice reflected a heart predisposed to accept the gospel and that he heard it before he passed.
    He very well could have before he died. He did have a month.

  10. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I'm not a universalist, so I do not believe good works can save you. Faith in Christ alone is what saves. Still, I can't help but think God will remember this man in his death, and perhaps He even saved him through faith in the month before he passed.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35352763
    "The attackers told the Muslims and Christians to split up but he was among Muslim passengers who refused..."

    Sounds like there might have been other Muslims who were shot too.

  11. #18
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    The concept of a wise judge being capable of making positive exceptions based on wisdom rather than law (including covenant law) is well known throughout history. King Solomon applied his wisdom as the highest judge and the Bible says that his wisdom was given to him by God.

    There is another possibility that is a bit different, the idea that God will give those who never heard the gospel in a meaningful way one last chance before he simply judges them according to their works. The idea I have of this is that it will be much harder to obey this call out of a sincere heart than it is when the gospel is presented through another human being. But not impossible. There is a hint of this, or it can be interpreted in that direction :

    1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
    18 And if the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?
    19 Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good

    It is in the fact that he bothers to question how the ungodly will fare, at all.
    All this is in the realm of possibility and nothing can be concluded, we will simply have to wait and see.

  12. #19
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Noone can make God bend his own rules but God himself can make exceptions. We wont know if he will and if so, how many exceptions he will make - until he holds judgment. We will simply have to wait and see. I'm convinced that anyone who sets their hope in God making an exception for them rather than obey the truth, will stand no chance at all. God cannot be bargained with. But he can show mercy, if he so chooses.
    Seriously? Exceptions? So when Jesus stated apart from HIM NO ONE comes to the Father there are exceptions?
    Wow...this thread is disturbing...

    Here is a quote from the article, ""It's only the religion that is the difference, so I ask my brother Muslims to take care of the Christians so that the Christians also take care of us... and let us help one another and let us live together peacefully"."

    This is true IN THIS LFE but in light of eternity one is LOST and one is SAVED. God's mercy was demonstrated in the most powerful manner when HE gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on HIM shall have eternal life...that is the path of mercy and the only one GOD gave..

  13. #20
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I think if were called upon to defend this man in the courts of heaven, I would argue that he was given a choice to stand with the people of God or stand with the slayers of God's people...and he chose to stand with God's people.
    Bookman, I ill probably not post again after making this statement...

    What you are proposing here is to literally stand in judgment of God. God will not ask US to determine someone's worthiness or not because we are not HIM. He has taken the greatest and ONLY step toward sinful man, His Son which provided the Holy Spirit to come and point to HIM for salvation.

    I have read discussions where God is judged as unmerciful BECAUSE He made the path so narrow...that SEEMS to be the core of this idea...that God is unmerciful if He does not let this kind and merciful man into Heaven...dangerous place to go, IMHO

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