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Thread: Your Favorite Secular Movie and Your Favorite Christian or Christian-Themed Secular Movie Ever

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I understand ...many friends were raised Catholic and didn't help them when praying to Mary or the saints.
    When they accepted, submitted and prayed to Jesus things happened

    Catholics may sincerely believe Mary hears their prayer but its not scriptural. In the NT we can only go to God the Father through Jesus Christ his son

    Mary is not mentioned anywhere in the NT apart from the gospels and even then Jesus did not elevate her to intercessor.
    In fact he treated he like a normal person with no special gift or calling

    Yes she is a godly wonderful woman and was blessed to carry Jesus but she is not a intercessor in heaven


    God has made a way through Jesus - why would he want us to go another way as its pointless
    Heb 7:25 - Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
    Also, 1Tim 2:5a "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus...". For anyone needing more than Jesus in any situation of a prayer need, perhaps they are needing to have a conversion (born-again) encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ rather than a church.

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  3. #32
    Cardinal TT: "I understand ...many friends were raised Catholic and didn't help them when praying to Mary or the saints.
    When they accepted, submitted and prayed to Jesus things happened"

    3 assumptions here can be refuted:
    (1) The key point is that, as Catholics, they failed to obey Catholic teaching and fully submit to Jesus.
    (2) Also, why do you violate Scripture by encouraging people to pray to Jesus? Jesus' model prayer teaches us to pray to the Father, not to Jesus (Matthew 6:9-13). Jesus Himself taught us to pray to the Father in Jesus' name (John 16:23). Nowhere does the New Testament teach that it is permissible to pray directly to Jesus! But Pentecostal doctrine does not need to be limited by Scripture, does it?
    (3) Catholic miracles are at least as impressive as Pentecostal miracles. For example, a former parishioner's son AS was demonically oppressed with accompanying terrifying paranormal manifestations. A Pentecostal deliverance team was invited to deliver AS, but to no effect. In desperation this evangelical family called the local Catholic bishop who sent them a Nigerian exorcist. That quiet Catholic exorcist immediately took charge of the demon and AS was gloriously delivered!

    A second example: In the real possession case that inspired the horror movie "The Exorcist," a Lutheran pastor tried to exorcize the young boy, but failed, being violently injured in his efforts! So in desperation, the family called for a Catholic exorcist. After a long spiritual battle, the boy agreed to convert to Catholicism, so that he could take Catholic Communion with the Catholic understanding of Real Presence. When the boy took Communion in this way, he was quickly and gloriously delivered!

    Cardinal TT: "...she is not a intercessor in heaven."

    Your claim that Mary is not an intercessor ignores and is refuted by the fact that we are all called to be intercessors in prayer and by the fact that deceased saints engage in intercession in Heaven (e. g. Revelation 6:1).

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk View Post
    Cardinal TT: "I understand ...many friends were raised Catholic and didn't help them when praying to Mary or the saints.
    When they accepted, submitted and prayed to Jesus things happened"

    3 assumptions here can be refuted:
    (1) The key point is that, as Catholics, they failed to obey Catholic teaching and fully submit to Jesus.
    (2) Also, why do you violate Scripture by encouraging people to pray to Jesus? Jesus' model prayer teaches us to pray to the Father, not to Jesus (Matthew 6:9-13). Jesus Himself taught us to pray to the Father in Jesus' name (John 16:23). Nowhere does the New Testament teach that it is permissible to pray directly to Jesus! But Pentecostal doctrine does not need to be limited by Scripture, does it?
    (3) Catholic miracles are at least as impressive as Pentecostal miracles. For example, a former parishioner's son AS was demonically oppressed with accompanying terrifying paranormal manifestations. A Pentecostal deliverance team was invited to deliver AS, but to no effect. In desperation this evangelical family called the local Catholic bishop who sent them a Nigerian exorcist. That quiet Catholic exorcist immediately took charge of the demon and AS was gloriously delivered!

    A second example: In the real possession case that inspired the horror movie "The Exorcist," a Lutheran pastor tried to exorcize the young boy, but failed, being violently injured in his efforts! So in desperation, the family called for a Catholic exorcist. After a long spiritual battle, the boy agreed to convert to Catholicism, so that he could take Catholic Communion with the Catholic understanding of Real Presence. When the boy took Communion in this way, he was quickly and gloriously delivered!

    Cardinal TT: "...she is not a intercessor in heaven."

    Your claim that Mary is not an intercessor ignores and is refuted by the fact that we are all called to be intercessors in prayer and by the fact that deceased saints engage in intercession in Heaven (e. g. Revelation 6:1).
    Of course one can pray to Jesus, it follows from the fact that he is part of the Trinity.

    Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

  5. #34
    Colonel: "Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

    I knew you would cite the example of Stephen. But you overlook the key point: Stephen is directly addressing an apparition of Jesus (Acts 7:56)! So th8is is not an exception to Jesus' prayer rules.

    Colonel: "Of course one can pray to Jesus, it follows from the fact that he is part of the Trinity.

    Let me get his straight: you invoke your understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity as sufficient grounds to defy Jesus' teaching in His model prayer that we must pray to "the Father" and His subsequent instruction that we are to pray to the Father in Jesus' name (John 16:23)? Wow! You apparently don't understand why Jesus teaches us to pray to the Father in His name. Jesus' phrase "in my name" acknowledges our need for Jesus' role as our heavenly advocate and intercessor:

    "...we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Righteous (1 John 2:1)."
    "there is one mediator between God and humanity, Jesus Christ, Himself human (1 Timothy 2:5)."

    Praying directly to Jesus not only defies His express teaching; it also eliminates our need to acknowledge His mediation and advocacy in each prayer.

    Neither the word "Trinity" nor the concept of the triune Personhood of God appears in the Bible. When we think of the Trinity, we must construe it in terms of Jesus' admission, "My Father is greater than I (John 14:28)" and must recognize that as the sense in which Jesus carefully distinguishes Himself from God, acknowledging God as the source of His goodness:"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18)." And no, Jesus' comment is not fishing for an acknowledgement that He is God. The subject of Jesus' identity is never raised in this section of Mark. True, Jesus is the divine "Son of God" and Thomas acclaims the risen Lord as "my Lord and my God" (John 20:28). But Jesus prefers that word to be reserved for "the Father."

    Theophilus, bishop of Antioch, is the first orthodox Christian leader to use the word "Trinity" (180 AD). But his Trinity excludes the Holy Spirit and consists of "God, God's Word, and God's Wisdom."
    Indeed, it is not the Holy Spirit but Lady Wisdom who is personified in the OT and portrayed as if She is a distinct Person from God (e. g. Proverbs 8). In our Gospels, Jesus serves as the mouthpiece of Lady Wisdom (Luke 11:49-51; cp. Matthew 23:34-35), but never of the Holy Spirit, despite receiving the Spirit at His baptism. Jesus presents Himself as "a child of Wisdom" (Luke 7:35). The use of the masculine noun "parakletos" in John 14-16 requires a masculine pronoun and in itself does not personify the Holy Spirit as a distinct Person from the Father and Son. So the use of the triune baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 does not in itself imply the subsequent doctrine of the Trinity. But I accept the clarifying revelation of the Catholic Councils about this doctrine because I believe in the Spirit's guidance of early Catholic tradition in determining the NT canon and the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    "

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