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Thread: Our Hands Are Stained With Blood: The Tragic Story of the "Church" and the Jewish People - Michael B

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    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Our Hands Are Stained With Blood: The Tragic Story of the "Church" and the Jewish People - Michael B


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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    IMO.....I dislike the title

    Certainly there are religious organisations and sections of the church who did terrible things to Jews and it needs confession and repentance.

    But I disagree with a blanket statement that the 'church' which comprises of hundreds of millions over 2000 years all have blood on their hands. I and millions like me haven't persecuted any Jews.

    Usually I support Dr Brown and he probably explains what he means inside his book but I just find the title too exaggerated

    Dr Brown explains NT passages where it says Jews as responsible for killing Jesus and the early church believers as referring to the Jewish leaders not the Jewish people.

    If he only blames the Jewish leaders 2000 years ago why then are ALL the church to blame...that's not consistent.
    Wasn't it the leaders especially Roman Catholic leaders responsible for persecuting Jews.
    Millions of real believers were also oppressed by the 'Church' organisation as well as tortured and martyred

    Even if he clarifies himself in his book and the above interview which I haven't listened to I find the title troublesome and imo will detract from his message

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Actually the sentiment of the common Christian down the ages has often been that Jews should be treated as outcasts. But I agree with Cardinal TT that drawing the line from centuries long gone to Christian leaders or commoners today is too much of a blanket statement. That's like blaming slavery on me, the Norwegian, since the Danish-Norwegian government of the 1700s had for a time one island in the Caribbean where there was slavery. Or like blaming it on the Norwegian government of today.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Actually the sentiment of the common Christian down the ages has often been that Jews should be treated as outcasts. But I agree with Cardinal TT that drawing the line from centuries long gone to Christian leaders or commoners today is too much of a blanket statement. That's like blaming slavery on me, the Norwegian, since the Danish-Norwegian government of the 1700s had for a time one island in the Caribbean where there was slavery. Or like blaming it on the Norwegian government of today.

    Or blaming modern Norwegians for the brutality of the Vikings. Should all living Scandinavians have blood on their hands for the past.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Actually the sentiment of the common Christian down the ages has often been that Jews should be treated as outcasts.
    I'm not sure the millions of common Christians all had that sentiment. Many common believers were simple folk who just wanted to make a living and bless their families.
    In some nations generations of Christians were born and died and never encountered any Jews.

    In the area where my family came from in Greece some of the Jewish people lived in the biggest and best homes.
    Anti semitism existed in many places but there were also communities where they lived and traded for generations in peace.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I'm not sure the millions of common Christians all had that sentiment. Many common believers were simple folk who just wanted to make a living and bless their families.
    In some nations generations of Christians were born and died and never encountered any Jews.

    In the area where my family came from in Greece some of the Jewish people lived in the biggest and best homes.
    Anti semitism existed in many places but there were also communities where they lived and traded for generations in peace.
    Some times Jews were assigned specific roles because a number of jobs were disallowed. They could for instance be allowed to work as moneylenders and some would get rich but even then they would be seen as outcasts, to some degree, even by those far poorer than themselves. Anti-semitism was more established than at a purely theological or administrative level. World War 2 changed that a lot in the West but very little in Muslim countries.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Or blaming modern Norwegians for the brutality of the Vikings. Should all living Scandinavians have blood on their hands for the past.
    Some people take those Vikings too seriously..

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    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Even if he clarifies himself in his book and the above interview which I haven't listened to I find the title troublesome and imo will detract from his message
    Maybe you wouldn't find it so troublesome if you had all the information. We tend to look at this issue through our 21st century lens and the few stories we heard. As we know Brown is an educational 'scholar' (which in itself doesn't mean anything per se) and I would imagine, especially being a Messianic Jew that he has researched this subject more thoroughly than most of us will ever even come close to. And just from reading after him (and knowing him personally) he's not prone to hyperbole or exaggeration.

    We're talking centuries of church history that we really don't know much about in regards to this subject. Watching the video would be a good start. He says he has seen more anti-semitism in the last two years from 'Christians' than he has in his whole ministry up to this point. Not to mention famous anti-semites in church history such as Martin Luther. He wrote some pretty despicable things about Jews. And the Crusades we the 'church' starting bloody wars agains Muslims and Jews to take the Holy Land. And most were behind it including the 'common' people. And they wore that cross on their chest as a symbol.

    You mentioned people not being 'real' Christians, and mentioned the Catholics. Maybe not, but it's still the only 'church' that the Jews know. There are even evangelics out there now, and one well-known one he mentions in the video that has actually reprinted a book by Martin Luther that was horribly anti-Semitic because of his hatred of the Jews. It's not as uncommon as we think because of the circles most of us run in aren't anti-Semitic.

    I watched the video, but have not read his book, even though I have it. To be honest, the title has bugged me some too, but I have refrained over the years from saying anything about it because I am not as well informed and studied as he is on the subject. I have a suspicion that if we actually read it we might agree with him. As far as we know there may have been centuries where the 'church' as a whole was anti-Semitic.

    Again, I can tell from what you've written that a lot of it is through your small sense (and mine too) of our present time and our own small circles.

    As a matter of fact, if you will read it (if you haven't that is) I'll buy you a copy of the revised edition and send it to you and I'll get one for myself too and we'll read them and see what we think once we are more informed. There's probably some pretty atrocious things in it that we don't have a clue about. And the enormity of it is probably a lot more than we know about. If you have read it, then not much I can say about your opinion. At least it would be well-informed.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Fuego

    Thanks for your input and I appreciate that

    I am no historian but am a reader of history and probably more informed than many due to my interest of reading and researching. Also my family lineage is Greek and we have a huge history also in regard to Islam controlling Greece for 3 centuries.

    There is no doubt Dr Brown is a credible scholar and there are many horrific stories of Jewish atrocities performed in the name of God by believers.

    But millions from Eastern Europe are Orthodox faith not Catholic and even though there was anti-semitism it wasn't like the Catholic church crusaders
    Should millions of Orthodox be lumped with the atrocities of Catholics with stained hands?????

    Dr Brown is also selective as I listened to a past video where he explains that only the Jewish leaders were responsible for the attacks against Christians in the NT not the Jewish people.
    Because he is a Messianic Jew imo he wants to downplay that the 'Jewish people' were at fault when it comes to aggression against Christians but he has no problem placing blame on the whole christian community with stained hands - that is showing partiality

    Imo he has allowed his Jewish background to influence the way he has interpreted the scripture. The Apostle Paul a Jew is not partial and makes it quite clear that sometimes it was the whole Jewish community not just leaders


    Yes definitely there is stained hands of many parts of the Church for anti semitism but not all so I disagree with Dr. Brown
    Also because anti semitism still exists in the church do we ALL currently have 'stained hands' - what about the millions of evangelicals that are huge supporters of Israel.

    Fuego - Do you consider that every American has stained hands due to the atrocity and slavery against Blacks?
    Would Dr Brown write that every Jew in America has stained hands over slavery as there are records that some Jews were involved in the slave trade?
    Is it logical to blame all whites with blood stained hands regarding Native Americans?
    Do we see all Japanese people with blood stained hands for what they did in WW2?

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    I admire Dr Brown greatly and I recommend him as a go-to guy in many areas of scriptural analysis and I would probably agree with +90% of what he writes.

    Church history is littered with many horrific acts against Jews and many other people groups.
    How much responsibility does God place on every believer for past atrocities?

    What if your family got converted in South America or Vietnam or China or Phillipines in the 1600's. Are your hands stained with blood???


    Something a bit more personal
    The Ottomon Turks were ruthless and conquered Greece for 300 years. Many men were slaughtered. Women raped, children abused and sold into Islamic families and others made to convert by the sword. My great grandfather was killed by Turks

    Can I from my Greek background declare that ALL Muslims have stained hands with blood because of the slaughter and rape of millions of Greeks over the centuries.
    With all due conscience I cannot say that every Muslim has stained hands

    I preached in Turkey in 2009 to people descended from the Ottomon Turks. The irony was that these Turks were descendent from the brutal Ottomans who
    massacred my fellow Greeks but here I was ministering to them.

    I remember taking time to reflect and ponder as I looked at the modern Turks. I remember thinking can I blame these modern Turks for the past. Can I hold hate and vengeance for what they did to my family and fellow Greeks. They looked like any other normal human being trying to live and survive in this fallen world.

    I then knew that God's love is greater and releasing them from any past pain is necessary. The modern Turks can't be held responsible for the Ottomon Turks.
    I knew God was using it to bring fresh freedom into my heart to love and want God's goodness to be over Turkey.

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