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Thread: What is your spiritual DNA?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    I assure you this songleader was a very typical Pentecostal, and certainly not a Shambach.

    BTW, many articles on pentecostalism knew little about Pentecost and their articles reflected that. Pentecost was a special move of God and even chrismatics today are often ignorant of the way it came together at Azuza. There were many things at Azuza that were excessive. But within that great revival are the true ways that pentecost became a dynamic and powerful move of God.
    It seems to me that that is precisely why Woodworth-Etter held back on joining the movement until 1912, because of excesses and strange doctrines.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    1914 is 8 years after Azuza. They were not formed at Azuza. They came later and formed into one unit only after Church of Christ split off and another split involving the Apostolic movement. The major movement of Pentecost included the Church of God movements (Cleveland) Pentecostal Holiness, etc. I have none of my notes on this as I have destroyed them and sold all my books. I can only refer you to Author Vinson Synan books. I will have to leave you to the non-pentecostal articles or articles with built in prejudice. Most of the large denominations like to applaud their Azuza roots when they actually have none.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    It seems to me that that is precisely why Woodworth-Etter held back on joining the movement until 1912, because of excesses and strange doctrines.
    I don't remember that she ever joined the movement as a licensed minister, but only fellowshipped with them. She was never a strong believer in Tongues as her basic beliefs were Holiness who in the 80s and 90s did not practice tongues.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    1914 is 8 years after Azuza. They were not formed at Azuza. They came later and formed into one unit only after Church of Christ split off and another split involving the Apostolic movement. The major movement of Pentecost included the Church of God movements (Cleveland) Pentecostal Holiness, etc. I have none of my notes on this as I have destroyed them and sold all my books. I can only refer you to Author Vinson Synan books. I will have to leave you to the non-pentecostal articles or articles with built in prejudice. Most of the large denominations like to applaud their Azuza roots when they actually have none.
    I read Vinson Synan's "The Holiness-Pentecostal Tradition" in 2013. I have it on my Kindle.

    He only talks about her in a very short chapter about women's ministry where he says that she and Dowie popularized an emphasis on healing "that became a major attraction of the Pentecostal religion". He doesn't discuss her influence on Pentecostalism in general, only that she joined the movement some time after 1906. Synan's style is very neutral, the way he refers to the miraculous one would think that he doesn't really believe the reports. Or maybe he is just being neutral so as to seem scholarly to the non-religious reader.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    I don't remember that she ever joined the movement as a licensed minister, but only fellowshipped with them. She was never a strong believer in Tongues as her basic beliefs were Holiness who in the 80s and 90s did not practice tongues.
    Here is an excerpt from her report from a meeting she held in St. Louis in 1890. It's found in chapter 22 of her 1916 biography.

    "Many were baptized with the Holy Ghost, and received many gifts; all the gifts were manifested by the Holy Ghost. Many received the gifts of healing; the casting out of devils; some of miracles; of visions; of the gifts of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands; some received the gift of new tongues, and spake very intelligently in other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance. He gave them to know what they were speaking"

    So you are mistaken. She was very different to the typical Holiness preachers who went on to denounce the Pentecostal movement. Some say she was the only major Holiness preacher who did embrace the Pentecostal movement.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    There is no indication that she ever spoke in tongues. If she did it was not the center of her preaching. She instead emphasized divine healing and the Coming of Christ.

    With all this discussion I am not saying she was not a great woman of God. She was.


    https://oldlandmark.wordpress.com/20...-pentecostals/

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    Raised Baptist, then went Pentecostal, then Charismatic. So Bapticostalmatic?

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  12. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    We need a revival of Pentecostalism that would bring us back to the Word and teaches us to get away from the fleshly desires that have come into the church with all kinds of excess. So much of charismatic is man trying to act out Holy Spirit manifestations that leaves us with fleshly garbage. Too many want to be a big shot when what they need is to get off that high chair and drape themselves over the altar and stay there until they get an outpouring if old fashioned Pentecostalism. Pentecostalism is not popular because it teaches that man needs God to do anything. Instead all we see in the church is "I<I<I<I<I<." We have forgotten what the word humbleness means.

    Basic pentecostal service like I grew up in. BTW I don't know these people:

    Thanks for sharing Nikos! It reminds me of my early years, 12-15, when we attended Evangel AoG here in OKC. We had a precious pastor, Floyd Poag. That was before worship leaders though.

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    There is no indication that she ever spoke in tongues. If she did it was not the center of her preaching. She instead emphasized divine healing and the Coming of Christ.

    With all this discussion I am not saying she was not a great woman of God. She was.


    https://oldlandmark.wordpress.com/20...-pentecostals/
    If you read the article you linked more carefully you will see that it says :

    It is not at all clear when Maria Woodworth-Etter received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, but she seems to have accepted the sign of the baptism, though she had no direct association with the Pentecostal Movement before the protracted revival in Dallas in 1912. She often referred to the “baptism of the Holy Ghost” in her journalistic books, but she never explicitly mentions speaking in tongues in any of her early writings, though her language is “Pentecostal”

    Her biography that I quoted earlier was written in 1916 so it is possible that she didn't mention tongues in writings from before Azusa Street. She was largely inactive as a minister during 1904-1912 before she preached throughout trinitarian Pentecostal circles from 1912. She wasn't very fond of Oneness doctrine. I don't know when the report from the 1890 St. Louis meeting was written down but it may very well not have been published until 1916. In the same book she has included a testimony by a man who spoke in tongues while under the power in one of her meetings in 1888.

    Chapter 62 in her 1916 biography has a sermon called "Work of the Holy Ghost" which is almost entirely about the importance of tongues. So by 1916 she was indeed a fully fledged Pentecostal even if she wasn't an ordained minister within any particular organization. Which she didn't need to be in order to preach widely in Pentecostal circles.

    Other articles claim that her husband Mr. Woodworth received the baptism in the Spirit and spoke in tongues in 1885. Very early in the book she talks about an 1880s meeting where people "received the baptism in the Holy Ghost" just like she had previously. The evidence suggests that she spoke in tongues already when she started ministering the gospel in power but the experience wasn't normative among those who were clothed with power, including for full time ministry and she didn't place emphasis on that part. In her sermon that I mentioned she talks about people being baptized in the Holy Ghost and the first words they spoke in tongues, when interpreted, tended to be "Jesus is coming soon" so apparently it was normative in her meetings by 1916.

    People tend to paint her as a Holiness woman who half accepted Pentecostalism but in reality she was a proto-Pentecostal who became a full Pentecostal except in the organizational sense and who was widely accepted in Pentecostal circles.
    Last edited by Colonel; 01-15-2017 at 09:57 AM.

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