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Thread: Does the Bible teach a pre-tribulation rapture of the church? Michael Brown

  1. #121
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post

    This was supposed to start at 13:00. He is talking about some of our discussion.
    Haven't watched it yet, but I know Dr Brown is 'vehemently opposed' to it. But he can't be right on everything.

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Haven't watched it yet, but I know Dr Brown is 'vehemently opposed' to it. But he can't be right on everything.
    Sometimes I wonder when talking to those opposed...because the reasons usually come from a sense of viewing such a concept as blasphemous or that God could never experience that...not even God in the flesh...but those are both more conceptual than scriptural....IMHO

    Fuego....what was the most convincing for you on this topic?

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    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Sometimes I wonder when talking to those opposed...because the reasons usually come from a sense of viewing such a concept as blasphemous or that God could never experience that...not even God in the flesh...but those are both more conceptual than scriptural....IMHO

    Fuego....what was the most convincing for you on this topic?
    Well, the scriptures that I've been using, and it just stands to reason IMO once you think it through. He was our substitute in ALL THINGS. He had to taste of everything we would have if we had died without Him. That's what being a SUBSTITUTE is all about. He didn't taste physical death for us per se, because others have died physically in behalf of others (even though they weren't sinless). And others have even been raised from the dead physically.

    It had to be the part that no man could substitute for us in, the SPIRITUAL side of His dying for us. Only someone sinless could substitute in the spiritual price because otherwise they couldn't be raised. They would stay 'dead' in their sin. The Father separated Himself from Jesus due to His becoming sin, and then Jesus had to pay the same penalty we would have had to pay for dying in our sin, the torments of hell. And that spiritual death couldn't hold Him because He wasn't truly guilty. He was spotless. It was only as a substitute. I really don't see how anybody couldn't get it. And logic and reasonable from a scriptural standpoint too. Plain as the nose on your face to me.

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  5. #124
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post

    This was supposed to start at 13:00. He is talking about some of our discussion.
    Finally listened to it. First of all, he's answering an argument that's not being discussed here. The only part I am discussing is did Jesus suffer in hell (which he does disagree with). He's arguing the 'Jesus being born again' thing. He's stating other things along with that that could use further clarification, because he is stating them in an extreme, or putting it in ways I wouldn't say it due to the very extreme nature of how he said it. And then he says Jesus did everything that needed to be done at the cross for our redemption when He said 'it is finished'. That's plainly not scriptural because He had to be raised (If Jesus be not raised...) and offer His blood on the heavenly mercy seat.

    Then right after that he answers a question about tongues being the initial evidence. The problem is the question is asked as INITIAL evidence and he answers concerning GENERAL evidence, NOT INITIAL. Although later on in disagreeing with the AOG in tongues being the only initial, he then does say in answer to that that it isn't the only but the most COMMON.

    Of course when you think it through, (and I had the Holy Spirit personally show me this by revelation when I was praying and meditate on it one time, I had never heard anyone else teach this) there can be no other DEFINITIVE INITIAL EVIDENCE. Why? Because any other thing that one says is INITIAL evidence has occurred before in the Bible. Well, if it has occurred before, then how do you know it it identifying the baptism in the Holy Spirit? An experience unique to the NT has to have an INITIAL evidence that is also unique, otherwise you don't know it's that experience.

    Look at it on a practical level. When I am praying for someone to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, how do I know they've received so I can quit praying for them to receive? Give me one other evidence that would let me know without question. There isn't one. If you know of one you can post here what it is. Therefore it is the ONLY INITIAL evidence whereby I know without a doubt they have been filled when I pray for them.

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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    So, has anyone else pondered that the birth and spread of islam, WWI & WWII is more than likely part of what is described in the book of Revelation? That period of history had a huge impact on the nation of Israel, even though they were dispersed about the globe. Did anything of that magnitude ever happen to Israel without God first telling His prophets?

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