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Thread: The two witnesses

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    The two witnesses

    Disclaimer : I'm not promoting nor attacking any particular end time scenario in this post. I will however focus on a detail involved in most of them, the identity of the two witnesses.

    Rev 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
    4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

    The Witnesses Killed
    7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

    The Witnesses Resurrected
    11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    Who are the two witnesses ? People have speculated that they are Enoch and Elijah because those two are the only ones that ascended bodily into heaven or at least without dying physically first. Others have speculated that they are Moses and Elijah because those two were involved in the transfiguration :

    Mark 9:2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.

    Moses did die physically so he couldn't have returned in bodily form along with Elijah which makes it highly unlikely that Elijah returned in bodily form since Moses didn't. Their appearances had to be spiritual in nature. The ministry of the two witnesses in the book of Revelation suggests that they are present in bodily form. The speculation that they are Moses and Elijah fits the fact that they are singled out in the transfiguration story but then one or both of them would have to be given a new body, basically reincarnating them on Earth for a time. Something about the transfiguration account suggests otherwise :

    5 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”— 6 because he did not know what to say, for they were greatly afraid.

    Peter, who doesn't know better, suggests that Jesus, Moses and Elijah should be treated as three prophets - one alive and two returned. What he doesn't understand or at least not fully is that Moses and Elijah represent the best from the old covenant whereas Jesus represents something entirely new :

    7 And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!” 8 Suddenly, when they had looked around, they saw no one anymore, but only Jesus with themselves.

    The voice of the Father, or of the Father speaking through the Holy Spirit points Peter and the others there to Jesus and tells them to listen to him. Then they find that the two old testament prophets have disappeared.

    9 Now as they came down from the mountain, He commanded them that they should tell no one the things they had seen, till the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 So they kept this word to themselves, questioning what the rising from the dead meant.
    11 And they asked Him, saying, “Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”

    As we can see from verse 11, the disciples are still confused about the voice pointing to Jesus only. The reason why is that the Jews thought that Elijah was to return. Some thought that Jesus was Elijah returned, which he denies elsewhere.

    12 Then He answered and told them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and restores all things. And how is it written concerning the Son of Man, that He must suffer many things and be treated with contempt? 13 But I say to you that Elijah has also come, and they did to him whatever they wished, as it is written of him.”

    He's referring to John the Baptist who was dead by now, as he states explicitly in other accounts. He also refers to John the Baptist as the greatest among those born of women but still lesser than the least in the kingdom of God, making him the last (and greatest) Old Testament prophet. Moses, Elijah and John the Baptist operating in the spirit of Elijah have come to an end as speakers to the Jewish people and to the world as such (though we have their words recorded in the Bible of course, to be read through the lens of the New Covenant). From now on it was Jesus whom the voice from heaven accepted as His beloved Son, the one they were to hear.

    Which makes their reappearance in the book of Revelation to speak to men in bodily or spiritual form out of the question. The two witnesses can only be men born in the time mentioned who are serving God and who operate in the ministry mentioned.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Two witnesses: Enoch; Elijah

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    Senior Member Tehilah Ba'Aretz's Avatar
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    Two guys.
    Sounds like a difficult job.
    Fire from their mouths? I've known people with bad breath but these guys have killer bad breath! You have to wonder if the fire comes in the form of words (curses) or if it is even voluntary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehilah Ba'Aretz View Post
    Two guys.
    Sounds like a difficult job.
    Fire from their mouths? I've known people with bad breath but these guys have killer bad breath! You have to wonder if the fire comes in the form of words (curses) or if it is even voluntary.
    Who knows. But at least we can try to determine what they are not.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    I use to wonder but now I don't care....who they are has already been settled

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    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I use to wonder but now I don't care....who they are has already been settled
    That's why I shared their identities.

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  8. #7
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    That's why I shared their identities.

    Good one

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    The WORD and the Spirit? Two witnesses let everything be established...

    Could this be speaking of the end time revival some prophetic voices keep speaking of...a last great battle where the Spirit anoints the church to go forth in great signs and wonders?

    But God could send Moses and Elijah to speak in Israel to point them to Jesus...? Although as Jesus stated, they already did and the leadership for the most part rejected HIM....

    would they believe one sent from the dead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    The WORD and the Spirit? Two witnesses let everything be established...

    Could this be speaking of the end time revival some prophetic voices keep speaking of...a last great battle where the Spirit anoints the church to go forth in great signs and wonders?

    But God could send Moses and Elijah to speak in Israel to point them to Jesus...? Although as Jesus stated, they already did and the leadership for the most part rejected HIM....

    would they believe one sent from the dead?
    I don't think anyone today would buy two people in the flesh being Moses and Elijah. Maybe if they worked awesome miracles seemingly at will but I doubt if their identity would matter if they did. Could as well be two people born during that time.

  11. #10
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    There is no record of the death of Enoch and Elijah. These are the two witnesses.

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