Page 1 of 33 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 325

Thread: Fallen Ministers - Entitled to Full Resoration?

  1. #1
    Don't Ban me Bro! John's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    5,483
    Thanked: 4693

    Fallen Ministers - Entitled to Full Resoration?

    A recent thread closed with a few few misconceptions dangling.

    How would you FEEL if people held your sin from 7-8 yrs ago against you and said you could no longer minister in your gifts and callings even though you'd done everything you'd been asked to do, submitting to your authorities and walking in humility and accountability. Would you truly believe you "deserved" to sit in the pews the rest of your life?
    The problem with that line of thinking is that ones FEELINGS trump truth. If you consider the end of a matter, apply emotion based theology to the broader body of Christ, we'd have to empty the the prisons of murderers, rapists, swindlers and every other person who didn't feel good about the FRUIT of their actions. We would have to offer them full restoration of their privileges, societal standing and church functions. After all, the end aim is to make them FEEL GOOD.

    The notion that God needs a certain man or woman is presumption. No one is robbed of the Lords ministry and HE certainly doesn't NEED anyone to carry out His will, He can and does use people, that does not mean that anyone is indispensable to the Kingdom. There is no entitlement to ministry and anyone who thinks so probably shouldn't be in ministry. It is a privilege to serve others, not an entitlement.

    As for the rest of your post, quite frankly, if you blew it badly and repented, submitted your life, etc...and 8 years later, dismissed every thing in your life, SWEARING you had no character whatsoever, then how would YOU feel? Not so great, I'd reckon.
    Again, how one FEELS about past destructive behaviour is between them and the Lord but it is not a mandate on our part to "restore" them to pre-fall privilege.

    Mercy triumphs over judgement, yes, but mercy is not an argument for full restoration, sin has consequences.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to John For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-28-2015)

  3. #2
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,041
    Thanked: 5451
    My feeling is that the minister should be viewed by the mentors of his restoration as having gotten back to at least where he was before at the heart level, in terms of consecration and sanctification before he should be allowed back. They should also get really tough on him to see if it is gold or just fool's gold. Anyone can then choose to go back to sin again based on free will but that is a good starting point.

    One's debt to society is a different topic. Adultery doesn't carry such a penalty in the Western world which makes that a non-issue. Someone's spouse may choose not to forgive and opt for divorce but that doesn't really have anything to do with the matter of restoration which is between God, the minister and the church in question.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-28-2015)

  5. #3
    Don't Ban me Bro! John's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    5,483
    Thanked: 4693
    I think that a loving approach would be to ascertain and seek to address damage done to the saints who were harmed by such a minister. Obviously the minister has issues apart from that but I wouldn't make those issues a priority, seems like more ministry elevation in progress, feeding the issue, elevating the ministers needs versus restoring order.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to John For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-28-2015)

  7. #4
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,041
    Thanked: 5451
    There has to be some openness involved in the process so that people are able to make informed decisions about whether to stay or to go somewhere else. In the US, going somewhere else is usually not a problem, in other areas of the world that could be a greater concern.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-28-2015)

  9. #5
    Don't Ban me Bro! John's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    5,483
    Thanked: 4693
    Paul had to deal with immorality at Corinth, he went to the body and ministered righteousness, to make them whole. His focus was not on the restoration of the one who was flaunting sin, he did instruct the church in how to deal with him but didn't make it a personal priority.

    Paul also dealt with unrighteous ministers as part of his ministry but I can't see any pattern that indicates he spent time or resources trying to "restore" them. He did go to those whom he had been entrusted with and tried to unwind the damage that others (unrighteous ministers) had inflicted.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to John For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-28-2015)

  11. #6
    John, you speak these mindsets you have as if they are eternal truths. Do you even know the difference between sin/repentance and apostasy and heresy? I cannot fathom that you have even a cursory understanding of God's heart for people. On really, any level. I'm flabbergasted by what you write, and that's saying a lot.

    The people you give the most mercy and grace to are Muslims and terrorists. I mean....it's just at a whole other level of Planet Bizarre.

    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    Paul had to deal with immorality at Corinth, he went to the body and ministered righteousness, to make them whole. His focus was not on the restoration of the one who was flaunting sin, he did instruct the church in how to deal with him but didn't make it a personal priority.

    Paul also dealt with unrighteous ministers as part of his ministry but I can't see any pattern that indicates he spent time or resources trying to "restore" them. He did go to those whom he had been entrusted with and tried to unwind the damage that others (unrighteous ministers) had inflicted.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to CatchyUsername For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-28-2015)

  13. #7
    And ps and btw, I find you exhausting and won't be responding to anything else you write.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to CatchyUsername For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-28-2015)

  15. #8
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,041
    Thanked: 5451
    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    Paul had to deal with immorality at Corinth, he went to the body and ministered righteousness, to make them whole. His focus was not on the restoration of the one who was flaunting sin, he did instruct the church in how to deal with him but didn't make it a personal priority.

    Paul also dealt with unrighteous ministers as part of his ministry but I can't see any pattern that indicates he spent time or resources trying to "restore" them. He did go to those whom he had been entrusted with and tried to unwind the damage that others (unrighteous ministers) had inflicted.
    This is how Paul dealt with the situation after the man had repented :

    2 Cor 1:5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely.
    6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient.
    7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.
    8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him.
    9 Another reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything.
    10 Anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake,
    11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-28-2015)

  17. #9
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,041
    Thanked: 5451
    Note that I'm listing the following passages in chronological order.

    Jesus calls Peter to be the leader of the earliest Church :

    Matthew 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
    16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
    18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it

    Peter denies Jesus three times :

    Luke 22:54 Having arrested Him, they led Him and brought Him into the high priest’s house. But Peter followed at a distance.
    55 Now when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the courtyard and sat down together, Peter sat among them.
    56 And a certain servant girl, seeing him as he sat by the fire, looked intently at him and said, “This man was also with Him.”
    57 But he denied Him, saying, “Woman, I do not know Him.”
    58 And after a little while another saw him and said, “You also are of them.”
    But Peter said, “Man, I am not!”
    59 Then after about an hour had passed, another confidently affirmed, saying, “Surely this fellow also was with Him, for he is a Galilean.”
    60 But Peter said, “Man, I do not know what you are saying!”
    Immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed.
    61 And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. Then Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how He had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”
    62 So Peter went out and wept bitterly.

    Peter reaffirmes his love for Jesus three times and is reinstated as the leader of the earliest Church three times :

    John 21:15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?”
    He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”
    He said to him, “Feed My lambs.”
    16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?”
    He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”
    He said to him, “Tend My sheep.”
    17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?”
    And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.”
    Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep."

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-28-2015)

  19. #10
    Don't Ban me Bro! John's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    5,483
    Thanked: 4693
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Note that I'm listing the following passages in chronological order.

    Jesus calls Peter to be the leader of the earliest Church :

    Matthew 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
    16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
    18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it

    Peter denies Jesus three times :

    Luke 22:54 Having arrested Him, they led Him and brought Him into the high priest’s house. But Peter followed at a distance.
    55 Now when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the courtyard and sat down together, Peter sat among them.
    56 And a certain servant girl, seeing him as he sat by the fire, looked intently at him and said, “This man was also with Him.”
    57 But he denied Him, saying, “Woman, I do not know Him.”
    58 And after a little while another saw him and said, “You also are of them.”
    But Peter said, “Man, I am not!”
    59 Then after about an hour had passed, another confidently affirmed, saying, “Surely this fellow also was with Him, for he is a Galilean.”
    60 But Peter said, “Man, I do not know what you are saying!”
    Immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed.
    61 And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. Then Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how He had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”
    62 So Peter went out and wept bitterly.

    Peter reaffirmes his love for Jesus three times and is reinstated as the leader of the earliest Church three times :

    John 21:15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?”
    He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”
    He said to him, “Feed My lambs.”
    16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?”
    He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”
    He said to him, “Tend My sheep.”
    17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?”
    And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.”
    Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep."
    Peter was still in the flesh, he wasn't born again yet. That debate probably needs to end up in the "were OT saints born again?". My understanding is that they weren't, until the vessel was washed in the blood of Jesus the Holy Spirit could not abide in them, on them at times but not in them.

    It's not relevant to New Covenant ministry.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to John For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-28-2015)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
You can avoid expensive repair costs with an extended service plan for your Ford. We cover all Ford models, including the Ford Mustang .