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Thread: Fallen Ministers - Entitled to Full Resoration?

  1. #61
    God is the God of restoration. That is what the cross is about. There is no restoration that is beyond the grace of God.

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  3. #62
    Don't Ban me Bro! John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Femme* View Post
    John.. I don't know the particulars.. and I don't know hearts. I know what TT has said. (which is that she cheated first.. he didn't set out to, but made some missteps.)

    Basically, at this point, it doesn't matter. He is broken. He is under restoration. I hope she is too. it's wrenching.
    The past year or so the local media has had a field day with him and another high profile pastor here.

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  5. #63
    Don't Ban me Bro! John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    God is the God of restoration. That is what the cross is about. There is no restoration that is beyond the grace of God.
    That is correct Jeff, but restoration differs from entitlement. There is a cost to sin.

    Public ministry revolves around "be as an example" to the flock, violating that has consequences. I've heard it and repeat it often..when you lose your reputation, you don't just ride into town and pick up a new one.

    Some people believe (or hope) that there is special dispensation for the office gift, that they are not accountable to the qualifications of an elder.

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  7. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    God is the God of restoration. That is what the cross is about. There is no restoration that is beyond the grace of God.
    That's what I thought, too.

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  9. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    That is correct Jeff, but restoration differs from entitlement. There is a cost to sin.

    Public ministry revolves around "be as an example" to the flock, violating that has consequences. I've heard it and repeat it often..when you lose your reputation, you don't just ride into town and pick up a new one.

    Some people believe (or hope) that there is special dispensation for the office gift, that they are not accountable to the qualifications of an elder.
    God has manifested his forgiveness at the cross, where Jesus addressed the "cost," the consequences of sin. By repentance, we turn or return to God, where we embrace his forgiveness and the cleansing we have through the cross of Christ.

    Nobody is "entitled" to serve in ministry. Everyone who is called and gifted for a ministry is called and gifted by the Spirit of God and as a matter of the grace of God, not because they are "entitled." The same grace of God that calls one to a ministry is perfectly able to fully restore the repentant to ministry. I find nothing in Scripture that hinders that.

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  11. #66
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    1 Tim 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.
    20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
    21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.
    22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.

    Noone is exempt from being commanded to repent, even in public. Those who do not repent may be expelled per 1 Cor 5 but I can find nothing that indicates that anyone cannot be restored after genuinely repenting. I can find some requirements for becoming an overseer/pastor to begin with :

    1 Tim 3:1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

    Including having a good reputation. What happens when someone sins then repents ? It should be possible to restore him but his reputation may be tarnished beyond repair because that is something that may be outside the leaders' or even church's control. So there is room for dismissing someone on that grounds but I don't see any commandment to do so.

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  13. #67
    Yes, there is definitely room to dismiss someone from leadership, and even to put someone outside the fellowship. But that does not mean that one cannot be fully restored, which God is certainly able to do. "A good reputation with outsiders" is one of Paul's standards, but that does not mean that one who has fallen can never have a good reputation again. There may be some who never do recover a good reputation, but I do not think it is impossible. If they do recover, then Paul's condition for leadership is, at that point, no longer a hindrance to restoration to ministry. And the question of "good reputation with outsiders" does not seem to me to be quantifiable but, rather, a judgment call by the others who have leadership in a congregation.

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  15. #68
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    Yes, there is definitely room to dismiss someone from leadership, and even to put someone outside the fellowship. But that does not mean that one cannot be fully restored, which God is certainly able to do. "A good reputation with outsiders" is one of Paul's standards, but that does not mean that one who has fallen can never have a good reputation again. There may be some who never do recover a good reputation, but I do not think it is impossible. If they do recover, then Paul's condition for leadership is, at that point, no longer a hindrance to restoration to ministry. And the question of "good reputation with outsiders" does not seem to me to be quantifiable but, rather, a judgment call by the others who have leadership in a congregation.
    In my opinion there are far too many ministers who have acquired an extremely poor reputation with the world and for good reasons (bad teaching, bad behavior, lack of repenting from either). The question is if they belong in the limelight and to which degree by now. The world will always find fault, paint things black, deny and reject and call people liars but there is such a thing as adding fuel to the fire. A good reputation with outsiders isn't an easy thing to restore, the world simply isn't that likely to forgive and forget and especially not those "stupid Christians". It's just a fact.

    Here's an example from the wikipedia article I linked earlier :

    Following adverse publicity of an impending visit to the United Kingdom, in August 2012, Bentley was made the subject of an exclusion order barring him from entering the country. The UK government's home office stated, 'The government makes no apologies for refusing people access to the UK if we believe they are not conducive to the public good. Coming here is a privilege that we refuse to extend to those who might seek to undermine our society.'[40]
    In December 2012, following the death of Croydon MP Malcolm Wicks, Bentley was criticised in the UK press after remarking that the MP's death was "the Lord's justice" for the role Wicks played in barring Bentley from entering the country


    Though I don't discount the possibility of God killing someone as judgment even in this age of the gospel of grace, there is no way that he is going to do that simply because the person was involved in barring some minister from entering the country. That is ridiculous and tells me (and sadly the world as well) a whole lot about the minister's perception of himself and his own importance. Did he repent from making that statement ? Probably not and that is a huge problem. Even if he had, it would still be a problem because it would be very difficult to undo the impression that such a statement (it could well be seen as murderously vindictive based on very little) creates in a world that isn't quick to forgive and forget to begin with.

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  17. #69
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    God's Grace saves from sin and forgives. You do not have to be forgiven to be an evangelist, but you do have to be forgiven to be saved.which then opens the door for you to be an evangelist. Abuse of that calling renders it impossible to restore. There must be righteous living and holy conduct to qualify for these callings/offices/gifts. For a man to turn his back on his wife who he has made vows of fidelity and adulterate to a floozy while at the same time deceiving the flock is wrong and makes it impossible to again be anointed to serve in that position. He needs to take his place in the pew and serve as a part of the congregation under a genuine man of God.

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  19. #70
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    God's Grace saves from sin and forgives. You do not have to be forgiven to be an evangelist, but you do have to be forgiven to be saved.which then opens the door for you to be an evangelist. Abuse of that calling renders it impossible to restore. There must be righteous living and holy conduct to qualify for these callings/offices/gifts. For a man to turn his back on his wife who he has made vows of fidelity and adulterate to a floozy while at the same time deceiving the flock is wrong and makes it impossible to again be anointed to serve in that position. He needs to take his place in the pew and serve as a part of the congregation under a genuine man of God.
    Scripture, please.

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