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Thread: Fallen Ministers - Entitled to Full Resoration?

  1. #161
    Don't Ban me Bro! John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Actually John..no. I neither said that nor even implied it. In fact I stated just the opposite. Repentance, and I think I stated this in one post, is not 'I'm sorry'. I hesitated to go any further as it would open another can of worms..

    But repentance truly recognizes the SIN for what it was...in the case of adultery if one says I am sorry but...one has not repented. Repentance in it's truest form if given that same set of circumstances would abhor that prior choice and run!

    TB stated unequivocally that what he did was purely selfish sin. He made no excuse, assigned no other blame, and even, if I recall stated if he could undo the wrong he had done he would. That is repentance..

    There are many who have not...or at least if they have they still cloak their sin with justification when in public...but IMHO if one still cloaks it they have not repented.

    I have not seen TB cloak his sin with any attitude of justification.
    People will dig in to defend their faves, that's for sure.

    1corinthians 3:4 - For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

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  3. #162
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    Well, like I said earlier, hyper-grace. You've spiritualized away the consequences of sin, lost your witness.
    Are you saying that consequences of sin are exacted by God on His repentant children?

    The consequence of 'losing our witness' as you call it is man passing judgment on another and is not GOD's way or leading.
    The loss of TRUST by brethren is not the same as passing judgment. For those who are Spirit led, restoration of trust comes as we trust and follow the Holy Spirit.

    The world is just as sickened by our proclamations of forgiveness and love that we don't demonstrate as they are with our fallen states.

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  5. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Are you saying that consequences of sin are exacted by God on His repentant children?

    The consequence of 'losing our witness' as you call it is man passing judgment on another and is not GOD's way or leading.
    The loss of TRUST by brethren is not the same as passing judgment. For those who are Spirit led, restoration of trust comes as we trust and follow the Holy Spirit.

    The world is just as sickened by our proclamations of forgiveness and love that we don't demonstrate as they are with our fallen states.
    You've lost your witness when you throw moral ministry standards under the bus.

    and your credibility.

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  7. #164
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Where in the Bible does it say you have to look like a sewer rat to win someone to Christ. The Church today likes to get off on the idea that we are different than 50 years ago. That is not the question. It is not about 'we." It is about Him. If you have the power of God manifest in your life, it will reach the lowest soul. There is nothing like the power of God. Your ideas are brainwashed into you minds. Yet the church today is far from what it should be. There is nothing but entertainment on the platform and absolutely zero power. None! The church can have its rock concert type services, but anyone with an understanding of what the poser of God is knows that the church is deader than a corpse in the grave. If Jesus comes back today, it will be a sad day for those who have invested their lives in people who cannot save you or heal you. You are on a dead end road.
    You come across as a typical example of an older person who really doesn't understand the younger generation(s). I'm sure you understand your own generation far better than most who are even slightly younger than yourself though. So this probably goes both ways.

    I've interacted with a lot of younger people on their own terms and level, especially in relation to sports at an elite level (no, nothing to do with lifting weights) and I know how hard it can be to relate well. To the degree that one is actually able to, one finds that things are both better and worse when one gains a better understanding. The problem is that the older generations miss so much of the "better" part and find it too easy to judge.

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  9. #165
    Don't Ban me Bro! John's Avatar
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    We don't "relate" to the lost. that is just another version of "seeker sensitive".

    We preach Christ and Him crucified, God brings the increase.

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  11. #166
    Frozen Chozen Admin A.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    If ministers are going to go with what people claim and nothing more than that then everyone's new marriage has to be accepted. Or everyone's new marriage has to be condemned. Either or.

    Dr. Michael Brown talked about a meeting where some minister he knew was asked by a man and woman to bless their relationship. He felt in the Spirit that something was wrong and he asked them "are you married" and they said yes. He still felt that something was wrong so he asked "to each other" and he soon discovered that that wasn't quite the case. They were both in the process of getting divorced from someone else and were already in a sexual relationship with each other.

    Discernment while dealing with specific cases and an anointing capable of convicting of the truth are needed to sort things out with difficult matters like this. When people aren't easily reasoned with and able to arrive at the truth in a more conversational or interactional manner together with the minister in question, that is. Even when that truth hurts.
    And you know what? I completely agree. For that couple to ask for a blessing when they are in the midst of their sin is more than ridiculous and stupid. They need to break up, repent and each go back and work on their own marriage, if at all possible.

    My husband and I have been married for 39 years. 30 of those we have been serving the Lord. We will freely tell anyone who asks, and sometimes if they don't ask, that marriage is HARD WORK. You don't stay in love all the time. It's something you CHOOSE to do. Love is a decision.

    All the babble about marriages falling apart... they fall apart if you don't work at the repairs.

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  13. #167
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    We don't "relate" to the lost. that is just another version of "seeker sensitive".

    We preach Christ and Him crucified, God brings the increase.
    1 Cor 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some

    Some people are better at being Jews to Jews etc etc etc, regardless of each one's general ability to preach Christ to the lost. The body of Christ is made up by many different parts and they all have different functions.

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  15. #168
    Frozen Chozen Admin A.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    We don't "relate" to the lost. that is just another version of "seeker sensitive".

    We preach Christ and Him crucified, God brings the increase.
    At this point, John, you're just creating arguments. Nit-picking over words.

    Seeker sensitive is a church that has chosen not to offend anyone. Well, the gospel is meant to offend and stir people to repentance.


    Your one liners are getting boring.

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  17. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    And you know what? I completely agree. For that couple to ask for a blessing when they are in the midst of their sin is more than ridiculous and stupid. They need to break up, repent and each go back and work on their own marriage, if at all possible.

    My husband and I have been married for 39 years. 30 of those we have been serving the Lord. We will freely tell anyone who asks, and sometimes if they don't ask, that marriage is HARD WORK. You don't stay in love all the time. It's something you CHOOSE to do. Love is a decision.

    All the babble about marriages falling apart... they fall apart if you don't work at the repairs.
    True dat. I know an adulterer, so for some reason he decides to open up one day and tell me how he struggles with adultery. So I asked him about his current affair and how that got started, he told me some details, yakety yack and I told him that he is not struggling at all. A struggle indicates some type of fight.

    Thing is with folks who are into adultery, that's just one manifestation of a seriously messed up life. The adultery is just a part of it.

    lying

    betraying

    lusting

    stealing

    truce breaking

    No one ever just woke up in bed one morning with a strange woman, it doesn't work that way.

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  19. #170
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    And you know what? I completely agree. For that couple to ask for a blessing when they are in the midst of their sin is more than ridiculous and stupid. They need to break up, repent and each go back and work on their own marriage, if at all possible.

    My husband and I have been married for 39 years. 30 of those we have been serving the Lord. We will freely tell anyone who asks, and sometimes if they don't ask, that marriage is HARD WORK. You don't stay in love all the time. It's something you CHOOSE to do. Love is a decision.

    All the babble about marriages falling apart... they fall apart if you don't work at the repairs.
    There are far less clear cut cases than my example. People will of course cry "you're judging our hearts" when they figure out that they are commanded to repent while some other couple who are in the same situation in the strictly formal sense aren't. God is the one who judges the hearts and confirms his message. Like I mentioned, it is difficult to penalize people based on sheer discernment but it should be easier to withhold benefits that people feel entitled to, like continuing in ministry just because they are remarried even though the Spirit speaks to their specific case that they have merely formalized their adultery and their true wife that they haven't dealt with in a proper manner, is found elsewhere.

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