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Thread: Does God establish rulers?

  1. #11
    Frozen Chosen A.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njtom View Post
    Hi AJ. My guess is that Nikos' point is that under free will doctrine, the people of any nation are free to choose their leader, they are free to choose rightly or wrongly, and God won't necessarily override a wrongful choice. Therefore, the fact that a particular person has been chosen by a group of people to be their leader does not imply that God put him in that position. In other words, the "peoples' choice" is not necessarily "God's choice."
    Quote Originally Posted by FaithfulOne View Post
    i.e Saul
    So with that in mind, how does Romans 13:1 fit in that?

    New International Version
    Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

    New Living Translation
    Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

    English Standard Version
    Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

    Berean Study Bible
    Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

    Berean Literal Bible
    Let every soul be subject to the authorities being above him. For there is no authority except by God; but those existing are having been instituted by God.

    New American Standard Bible
    Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

    King James Bible
    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God.

    International Standard Version
    Every person must be subject to the governing authorities, for no authority exists except by God's permission. The existing authorities have been established by God,

  2. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Doesn't apply to the Kims of North Korea.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    So with that in mind, how does Romans 13:1 fit in that?

    New International Version
    Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
    ....
    Well, that's always been a difficult verse for me, because taken literally, it means that the Third Reich was established by God. I tend to believe that it is stating in a general sense that the function of government is established by God.

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  5. #14
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njtom View Post
    Well, that's always been a difficult verse for me, because taken literally, it means that the Third Reich was established by God. I tend to believe that it is stating in a general sense that the function of government is established by God.
    If you read further down you will see that the detailed description doesn't fit the Nazis nor the Kims.

  6. #15
    Frozen Chosen A.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njtom View Post
    Hi AJ. My guess is that Nikos' point is that under free will doctrine, the people of any nation are free to choose their leader, they are free to choose rightly or wrongly, and God won't necessarily override a wrongful choice. Therefore, the fact that a particular person has been chosen by a group of people to be their leader does not imply that God put him in that position. In other words, the "peoples' choice" is not necessarily "God's choice."
    Quote Originally Posted by FaithfulOne View Post
    i.e Saul
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    So with that in mind, how does Romans 13:1 fit in that?

    New International Version
    Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Doesn't apply to the Kims of North Korea.
    Quote Originally Posted by njtom View Post
    Well, that's always been a difficult verse for me, because taken literally, it means that the Third Reich was established by God. I tend to believe that it is stating in a general sense that the function of government is established by God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    If you read further down you will see that the detailed description doesn't fit the Nazis nor the Kims.
    I think it's a concept that we all find ourselves pondering... but even with Nazi Germany and the atrocities they committed, is it any different than the many things God allowed and are recorded in the old testament? God allowed His people to be in captivity and harshly treated over and over.

    With North Korea, is it possible God allowed the Kims to be established there for His end time scenario? Someone will have to drop the first bomb, if we believe any of the interpretations and teaching of the Tribulation to come.

  7. #16
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
    4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
    5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake

    The nazis and Kims don't qualify according to anything in verses 3-4 therefore they don't qualify for verse 5 either.

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  9. #17
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    So with that in mind, how does Romans 13:1 fit in that?

    New International Version
    Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

    New Living Translation
    Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

    English Standard Version
    Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

    Berean Study Bible
    Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

    Berean Literal Bible
    Let every soul be subject to the authorities being above him. For there is no authority except by God; but those existing are having been instituted by God.

    New American Standard Bible
    Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

    King James Bible
    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God.

    International Standard Version
    Every person must be subject to the governing authorities, for no authority exists except by God's permission. The existing authorities have been established by God,
    I just take that as government is ordained by God. Government in and of itself. Rulership in and of itself. It's not saying that the people in that government are necessarily set or ordained by God.

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  11. #18
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I just take that as government is ordained by God. Government in and of itself. Rulership in and of itself. It's not saying that the people in that government are necessarily set or ordained by God.
    Government according to the definition given in the next verses that is. There are many arrangements where people or an organization rule over other people that do not fit the definition of government according to the Bible. It's something more than just what fits the English term in the broadest sense.

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  13. #19
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    I am not saying God specifically ordained and placed the Roman Empire in place but he told Daniel centuries earlier they would arise

    Paul accepted they lived under the tyranny of the RE and he wrote Romans 13 with this in mind. RE were ruthless and slaughtered anyone opposing them. They killed and enslaved many and Paul still expected the Roman christians to obey them.

    When it came to the gospel they could disobey but it ended up with massive martyrdom.

    Our western minds find it difficult to understand but the Roman Empire were just as bad as Hitler or the Kims

    I have a christian friend from Romania who lived under the evil Communist dictator Ceausescu who killed and imprisoned people including believers.
    Some terrible stories of torture were done to believers who would not renounce their faith usually those in christian leadership.
    God was still able to work in the general lives of christians. Yes it was tough and hard but they did not have any directive to overthrow the government and had to submit to their authority.



    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
    4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
    5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake

    The nazis and Kims don't qualify according to anything in verses 3-4 therefore they don't qualify for verse 5 either.

  14. #20
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    The context was still the Roman Empire who were ruthless and slaughtered anyone opposing them. They killed and enslaved many and Paul still expected the Roman christians to obey them.

    When it came to the gospel they could disobey but it ended up with massive martyrdom.

    Our western minds find it difficult to understand but the Roman Empire were just as bad to the nations as Hitler or the Kims
    They were brutal but hardly as lawless as those two regimes. Like many empires of that time they attempted to establish rudimentary law and order as described in the verses. Plus protection against external aggressors. Like with the Persian empires they brought a level of stability that was arguably better than many alternatives (Philistine rule etc). Their general approach was to include the various people groups and religions under their system of law and order and that was the situation at the time when Paul wrote Romans 13. Only later did they generally persecute the church. In the book of Acts we see them maintaining law and order when Jews tried to persecute Christians.

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