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Thread: On the Wrath of God- is it an essential or fundamental attribute of God?

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    On the Wrath of God- is it an essential or fundamental attribute of God?

    I was not sure where to put this. Also there's a few threads on this topic and I thought if I put this in one of them it would get lost. So here goes.


    How should we understand the wrath of God? That the entire Bible teaches that God's perfect holiness and hatred of sin entails wrath and judgment on unrepentant sinners is perfectly clear. This is one of the clearest themes found throughout Scripture. There are many hundreds of passages on God's anger and wrath, in both Testaments. (emphasis mine)

    ...

    But here I want to discuss one particular aspect about (God's wrath). Theologians have differed as to whether the wrath of God is an essential or fundamental attribute of God, or a relative or accidental attribute. That is, God's love seems to be eternally essential to who God is. It is a moral attribute which is basic to who God is. But is this also true of his wrath?


    All 2136 words of this interesting discussion can be read at On the Wrath of God - CultureWatch

    The author has a more general discussion here The Wrath of God - CultureWatch, where he ends with

    The number one job of the Christian in his gospel presentation is to proclaim the cross. While we have often been good at highlighting the love of God as reflected in the cross, we must also highlight the wrath of God, for the one makes no sense without the other.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Kind of like "God is wrath" ? It doesn't say that anywhere. If it had then that would imply that God is in need of someone sinful to relate to so that he can express his true nature against that someone. Is that what you believe ?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Kind of like "God is wrath" ? It doesn't say that anywhere.
    Nope, it don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    If it had then that would imply that God is in need of someone sinful to relate to so that he can express his true nature against that someone.
    That's probably part of the overall discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Is that what you believe ?
    Never thought about it. Fully agree with this though:

    While we have often been good at highlighting the love of God as reflected in the cross, we must also highlight the wrath of God, for the one makes no sense without the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Nope, it don't.


    That's probably part of the overall discussion.


    Never thought about it. Fully agree with this though:

    While we have often been good at highlighting the love of God as reflected in the cross, we must also highlight the wrath of God, for the one makes no sense without the other.
    What you said seems to suggest that God preordained the sinful actions of his creatures and the reason why was so that he would have something to exercise his wrathful nature against.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    What you said seems to suggest that God preordained the sinful actions of his creatures and the reason why was so that he would have something to exercise his wrathful nature against.
    I didn't see that in the articles I linked to, I'll have to re-read them I guess.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Would you agree that Satan hates people and wants them to sin, irrespective of who they are, so that he can torment them in this life and also in afterlife ? That that is what Satan has had in mind for God's creatures ever since he exalted himself and became Satan ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Would you agree that Satan hates people and wants them to sin, irrespective of who they are, so that he can torment them in this life and also in afterlife ? That that is what Satan has had in mind for God's creatures ever since he exalted himself and became Satan ?
    We're not told a lot about Satan, but at a guess I'd say he's being tormented too much himself in hell to be able to torment anyone else. The idea that God would employ Satan as a tormented is a strange one.

    However I'm not sure how this relates to musing on the unsolvable question about whether the wrath of God is an essential or fundamental attribute of God, or a relative or accidental attribute?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    We're not told a lot about Satan, but at a guess I'd say he's being tormented too much himself in hell to be able to torment anyone else. The idea that God would employ Satan as a tormented is a strange one.

    However I'm not sure how this relates to musing on the unsolvable question about whether the wrath of God is an essential or fundamental attribute of God, or a relative or accidental attribute?
    I'm trying to figure out if your version of God, especially how he relates to the non-elect, is different to the Bible's version of Satan. Whether Satan gets to torment people in eternity or if he merely wishes that he could isn't that important.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I'm trying to figure out if your version of God, especially how he relates to the non-elect, is different to the Bible's version of Satan. Whether Satan gets to torment people in eternity or if he merely wishes that he could isn't that important.
    I guess we have to start by remembering that even the smallest sin, even the littlest white lie, is transgression; is rebellion and insubordination; is lawlessness; is hostility; and is treachery against a Holy God and is therefore an absolute abomination to Him and because of it we are under His wrath and justifiable destined for hell.

    God's wrath is fully justified and just in case we miss this fact the entire Bible teaches that God's perfect holiness and hatred of sin entails wrath and judgment on unrepentant sinners.

    As I said, we're not told a lot about Satan, but unless he punishes people because they are evil, and is fully justified in doing so, then he and God are completely different.

    Which they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    I guess we have to start by remembering that even the smallest sin, even the littlest white lie, is transgression; is rebellion and insubordination; is lawlessness; is hostility; and is treachery against a Holy God and is therefore an absolute abomination to Him and because of it we are under His wrath and justifiable destined for hell.

    God's wrath is fully justified and just in case we miss this fact the entire Bible teaches that God's perfect holiness and hatred of sin entails wrath and judgment on unrepentant sinners.

    As I said, we're not told a lot about Satan, but unless he punishes people because they are evil, and is fully justified in doing so, then he and God are completely different.

    Which they are.
    The above only works if sin isn't God's doing in any way, shape or form. If it is then he has forefeited on his ability to function as a righteous judge. Instead it is all his own doing, both the fact that his creatures sin, the direct consequences of the sin, plus any judgments on it that he would add himself.

    The main difference seems to be that Satan wants everyone to suffer, preferably according to their own doings, plus that he adds suffering on top of that. But can and does Satan treat his loyal servants better than he treats average sinners ? I'd say yes, he protects and prospers those that actually do serve him. Those that I've talked to tended to be very happy about being part of his elite, whether they thought that they served Satan or they thought that they served some spiritual force or god that was in opposition to Christianity.

    One huge difference between God and Satan in the Bible is that God is almighty and Satan is not. Maybe Satan thought that he could make Jesus serve him and thereby become almighty in his stead. Or that he would somehow become almighty if he managed to kill Jesus and keep him in death. The Satan that Satan worshippers serve is, in their minds, almighty. Or at least he cannot be done anything about. The creator God may still be there but they think that he's unable to do anything about Satan and his kingdom and that it will prevail. Some of them think that Satan did manage to kill Jesus and that he is a de facto almighty god.
    What about those that serve some spiritual force or god that is in opposition to Christianity ? That's a more generic witch and I've talked to several. They typically believe that their version is the real God, at least according to some definition, and that unspiritual people and especially Christians (whom they consider to represent a wrong or unuseful kind of spirituality) are lesser human beings, which makes themselves the elite.

    In the case of the generic witches or new agers they don't think that their God or spiritual force is interested in making everyone else than the elite suffer per default. There are no preordained groups where the majority is born to be unspiritual or spiritually faulty and are predestined to suffer. Nor is there a minority that is born to be spiritual and to prosper. They typically believe in personal choice and that one's status as part of the spiritual elite or not can be altered.

    Satan worshippers typically believe that Satan is some kind of evil and especially towards those that do not measure up to actually serve this spiritual being that they themselves relate to and serve. How do I know that ? I talked to a high level satanic witch for a couple of years on an other forum. She travelled across the world and visited one of the regular posters at one time so we know that she was real.
    They do however believe that he is good towards the very small elite that serves him, at least in the sense that he prospers them, protects them, shares his spiritual power with them, performs magic through them and so on. They believe good things about afterlife with him, for themselves.

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