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Thread: On the Wrath of God- is it an essential or fundamental attribute of God?

  1. #31
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    FFO

    In regard to children dying and going to heaven when they don't have a choice ...it is a perfect example of God exercising his sovereignty which is 100% compatible with his character of love and mercy.

    I believe in God's sovereignty and this is a good example as it compliments scripture when James says 'mercy triumphs over judgment' and God doesn't send children to hell if they haven't reached accountability
    I personally think children are born 'innocent' anyway and don't even need a 'special' thing from God to send them to heaven. I think they're alive unto God until they reach an age of accountability. "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Just mentioning this. Not trying to get into another discussion or have Colonel write 10 pages on why I'm wrong. Nothing to see here. Move on.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I personally think children are born 'innocent' anyway and don't even need a 'special' thing from God to send them to heaven. I think they're alive unto God until they reach an age of accountability. "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Just mentioning this. Not trying to get into another discussion or have Colonel write 10 pages on why I'm wrong. Nothing to see here. Move on.
    I could write this sentence about how you are right instead. But there's always something to nitpick about, you're even right about that..

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  4. #33
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I could write this sentence about how you are right instead.

  5. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I know you didn't actually say that but what you said above sounds like the WCF should be held as more authorative than scripture for the simple reason that every interpretation of scripture is to comply to the WCF.
    I have to agree with you there that it sounds that way, yes.

    It is the problem with being human isn't it? The intent I beleive was to say summarise what the Bible teaches and so yes it's easier to go there then try summaries the Bible yourself.

    It's not easy getting to the nuts of the Bible which is why we've got teachers, and I bet most people don't go home and critique what they've been taught each Sunday. If it seems alright they accept it.

    In reality we shouldn't accept the WCF or anything else without first doing what we can to check if what it says is consistent with Scripture. On the other hand if we're to say it's incorrect, given the way it was developed, we need to develop a proper Biblical case against it.
    Is there such a thing as a rhetorical answer?
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  6. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    FFO

    In regard to children dying and going to heaven when they don't have a choice ...it is a perfect example of God exercising his sovereignty which is 100% compatible with his character of love and mercy.

    I believe in God's sovereignty and this is a good example as it compliments scripture when James says 'mercy triumphs over judgment' and God doesn't send children to hell if they haven't reached accountability
    This is how it seems to me TT, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

    You're big on people needing to have a choice.

    You seem to say here that you're happy with God not giving a choice to people who you don't think have done wrong, sending them to heaven.

    But you seem to say elsewhere that, when these people do do something wrong, when they choose to rebel against God, when they openly reject Him, when their evil manifests and they sin, and God says "alright, based on your choices justice says you go to hell", you're not happy with that.

    Summary:
    o- God sends those TT considers innocent to heaven: TT happy. God is sovereign and loving and merciful.
    o- God sends most of those whom God (and the rest of us including TT) know are desperately wicked to hell while some he allows into heaven: TT unhappy. It shouldn't be up to God. Men should get to decide.
    Is there such a thing as a rhetorical answer?
    Deja Moo: - (you don't want to know)
    Is it possible to have Deja vu and amnesia at the same time? (I feel like I've forgotten this before...) all from www.mikeysFunnies.com

  7. #36
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Summary:
    o- God sends those TT considers innocent to heaven: TT happy. God is sovereign and loving and merciful.
    o- God sends most of those whom God (and the rest of us including TT) know are desperately wicked to hell while some he allows into heaven: TT unhappy. It shouldn't be up to God. Men should get to decide.

    Can you show me where I said God doesn't have a right to send sinners to hell?
    God is righteous and holy and if people end up in hell then they obviously deserve that fate

    In regard to God pardoning children doesn't that prove he is Sovereign - why do Calvinists determine the parameters of sovereignty and its forbidden to others
    Calvinists only want God to be sovereign when it fits their doctrine

  8. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Can you show me where I said God doesn't have a right to send sinners to hell?
    I didn't intend to, so if I did I'm sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    God is righteous and holy and if people end up in hell then they obviously deserve that fate
    I fully agree.

    But did you miss the bit where I said "It shouldn't be up to God. Men should get to decide"? That's what you seem to be unhappy about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    In regard to God pardoning children doesn't that prove he is Sovereign - why do Calvinists determine the parameters of sovereignty and its forbidden to others
    God shows both mercy to some and justice to others because He's Sovereign. It's the Bible that determines the parameters of God's sovereignty TT, you and I have to either agree or disagree with that. We can discover it but we can't determine it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Calvinists only want God to be sovereign when it fits their doctrine
    Reformed Theology recognises that God is always Sovereign TT, here is a definition: "There are no limits to God's rule. This is part of what it means to be God. He is sovereign over the whole world, and everything that happens in it. He is never helpless, never frustrated, never at a loss. And in Christ, God's awesome, sovereign providence is the place we feel most reverent, most secure, most free."

    As far as I can tell you reject the idea of God's Sovereignty wrt your salvation.
    Is there such a thing as a rhetorical answer?
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  9. #38
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Bravissimo.

  10. #39
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    I have to agree with you there that it sounds that way, yes.

    It is the problem with being human isn't it? The intent I beleive was to say summarise what the Bible teaches and so yes it's easier to go there then try summaries the Bible yourself.

    It's not easy getting to the nuts of the Bible which is why we've got teachers, and I bet most people don't go home and critique what they've been taught each Sunday. If it seems alright they accept it.

    In reality we shouldn't accept the WCF or anything else without first doing what we can to check if what it says is consistent with Scripture. On the other hand if we're to say it's incorrect, given the way it was developed, we need to develop a proper Biblical case against it.
    The quote from the WCF found in this thread (and others) isn't consistent even with itself. It's more like a "dream of something that just cannot be".

  11. #40
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    This is how it seems to me TT, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

    You're big on people needing to have a choice.

    You seem to say here that you're happy with God not giving a choice to people who you don't think have done wrong, sending them to heaven.

    But you seem to say elsewhere that, when these people do do something wrong, when they choose to rebel against God, when they openly reject Him, when their evil manifests and they sin, and God says "alright, based on your choices justice says you go to hell", you're not happy with that.

    Summary:
    o- God sends those TT considers innocent to heaven: TT happy. God is sovereign and loving and merciful.
    o- God sends most of those whom God (and the rest of us including TT) know are desperately wicked to hell while some he allows into heaven: TT unhappy. It shouldn't be up to God. Men should get to decide.
    The latter is called unequal justice. The Bible forbids it throughout the OT and the NT.

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