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Thread: On the Wrath of God- is it an essential or fundamental attribute of God?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Not sure if this does either, but it is a very challenging 3min 45secs

    That's total nonsense. His closing statement presupposes that God must use his sovereignty to micro manage everything or else he isn't sovereign. Which is in conflict with how the term sovereignty is used in all other contexts.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That's total nonsense. His closing statement presupposes that God must use his sovereignty to micro manage everything or else he isn't sovereign. Which is in conflict with how the term sovereignty is used in all other contexts.
    It's sad he is so convinced of his argument without any reservations and even sadder that many listeners embrace it

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    It's sad he is so convinced of his argument without any reservations and even sadder that many listeners embrace it
    His argument stands or falls with his definition of the term sovereignty.

    What is funny about this is that the terms sovereignty or sovereign are used only once in the NKJV and not at all in the original KJV. It's used in the NKJV about king Saul :

    1 Sam 14:47 So Saul established his sovereignty over Israel, and fought against all his enemies on every side, against Moab, against the people of Ammon, against Edom, against the kings of Zobah, and against the Philistines. Wherever he turned, he harassed them.

    And it certainly doesn't imply that king Saul micro managed the affairs of every person in Israel, nor that he tried to do so.

    So what the Calvinist in the video is doing, is to take a secular term and redefine it to where it takes on a whole new meaning. Not a Biblical one but simply a Calvinistic one, something that exists within the mindset of Calvinism and nowhere else.

    Sadly, Christians of all kinds of persuasions are confronted with the Calvinist redefinition of the term sovereignty then accept that definition as a proper one. Not necessarily because they think that that is how the word is used elsewhere but usually because they are lulled into believing that the Calvinist redefinition of the term equals the Biblical definition or use of the term.

  4. #24
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    The NASB translation uses the term sovereign a few times including once in the NT. The term the KJV and NKJV use instead is potentate.

    1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

    The definition of the word potentate is much the same as for sovereign, it involves absolute power as in absolute ability (potential) and in no way an obligation to exercise that power absolutely.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    it involves absolute power as in absolute ability (potential) and in no way an obligation to exercise that power absolutely.
    God's sovereignty is like the Trinity and His omnipotence and His omniscience. There is no chapter in the Bible specifically about them but the idea can be drawn from Scripture.

    Hey TT, did you see the post where I asked about people going to heaven without being given a choice?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    This is a great video that confirms my previous comments about Calvinism

    The Westminster Confesion is elevated to the same level as inspired scripture to make a definitive authoritative statement regarding God and his character. It is a form of idolatry to idolise this confession.

    The argument that those that don't believe in the above confession are atheists is nonsensical gobbledegook and embarrassing that Christians could be so gullible.

    This video convinces me to reject Reformed teaching and in regard to apologetics of the faith and debating unbelievers is totally useless.
    The belief that God 100% pre-ordains everything that occurs is one of the dumbest teachings to ever come forth from believers

    I feel better getting that off my chest
    Behind what you see posted in your original post TT is lots of "stuff". Here's a summary

    On the Wrath of God- is it an essential or fundamental attribute of God?-capture-jpg

    And all that is in the following CODE box for you to look at. Scroll across for all 8000 characters.


    Code:
        <div class="posthead">            <span class="postdate old">                                    <span class="date">05-21-2020,&nbsp;<span class="time">07:39 PM</span></span>                            </span>            <span class="nodecontrols">                                    <a name="post108006" href="!g108006!8348-wrath-god-essential-fundamental-attribute-god-post108006.html#post108006" class="postcounter">#20</a><a id="postcount108006" name="20"></a>                                                            </span>    </div>    <div class="postdetails">        <div class="userinfo">            <div class="username_container">                            <div class="popupmenu memberaction">    <a class="username offline popupctrl" href="https://livingfaithforum.com/members/12.html" title="Cardinal TT is offline"><strong>Cardinal TT</strong></a>    <ul class="popupbody popuphover memberaction_body">        <li class="left">            <a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/members/12.html" class="siteicon_profile">                View Profile            </a>        </li>                <li class="right">            <a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=12&contenttype=vBForum_Post&showposts=1" class="siteicon_forum" rel="nofollow">                View Forum Posts            </a>        </li>                        <li class="left">            <a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/private.php?do=newpm&u=12" class="siteicon_message" rel="nofollow">                Private Message            </a>        </li>                                <li class="right">            <a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/blogs/cardinal-tt/" class="siteicon_blog" rel="nofollow">                View Blog Entries            </a>        </li>                                                <li class="right">            <a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/authors/12-cardinal-tt/" class="siteicon_article" rel="nofollow">                View Articles            </a>        </li>                        <li class="left">            <a rel="nofollow" href="https://livingfaithforum.com/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=12" class="siteicon_add">                Add as Contact            </a>        </li>                            </ul></div>                <img class="inlineimg onlinestatus" src="https://livingfaithforum.com/images/statusicon/user-offline.png" alt="Cardinal TT is offline" border="0" />                        </div>            <span class="usertitle">                Senior Member            </span>                                                            <a class="postuseravatar" href="https://livingfaithforum.com/members/12.html" title="Cardinal TT is offline">                <img src="https://livingfaithforum.com/avatars/cardinal-tt?dateline=1534851427" alt="Cardinal TT's Avatar" title="Cardinal TT's Avatar" />            </a>                                         <hr />                <dl class="userinfo_extra">                    <dt>Join Date</dt> <dd>Jul 2015</dd>                                                            <dt>Posts</dt> <dd>6,036</dd>                            <!-- Thanks --><tr><td class="legacystats"><div align="center"><span class="legacytext">Thanked: 4095</span></div></td></tr><!-- /Thanks --><dt>Blog Entries</dt><dd><a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/blogs/cardinal-tt/">1</a></dd>                </dl>                                                <div class="imlinks">                                        </div>                    </div>        <div class="postbody">            <div class="postrow">                                                                                                                                                    <div class="content">                    <div id="post_message_108006">                        <blockquote class="postcontent restore ">                            This is a great video that confirms my previous comments about Calvinism<br /><br />The Westminster Confesion is elevated to the same level as inspired scripture to make a definitive authoritative statement regarding God and his character. It is a form of idolatry to idolise this confession.<br /><br />The argument that those that don't believe in the above confession are atheists is nonsensical gobbledegook and embarrassing that Christians could be so gullible.<br /><br />This video convinces me to reject Reformed teaching and in regard to apologetics of the faith and debating unbelievers is totally useless.<br />The belief that God 100% pre-ordains everything that occurs is one of the dumbest teachings to ever come forth from believers<br /><br />I feel better getting that off my chest <img src="https://livingfaithforum.com/images/smilies/groovy.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Groovy" class="inlineimg" /><br /><br /><br /><div class="bbcode_container">    <div class="bbcode_quote">        <div class="quote_container">            <div class="bbcode_quote_container"></div>                            <div class="bbcode_postedby">                    <img src="https://livingfaithforum.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>FunFromOz</strong>                    <a href="!g108003!8348-wrath-god-essential-fundamental-attribute-god-post108003.html#post108003" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="https://livingfaithforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>                </div>                <div class="message">Not sure if this does either, but it is a very challenging 3min 45secs<br /><br /><iframe class="restrain" title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/tnu7mCsZ8Kw?wmode=opaque" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></div>                    </div>    </div></div>                        </blockquote>                    </div>                                    </div>            </div>                        <div class="cleardiv"></div>        </div>    </div>        <div class="postfoot">            <!-- <div class="postfoot_container"> -->            <div class="textcontrols floatcontainer">                <span class="postcontrols">                    <img style="display:none" id="progress_108006" src="https://livingfaithforum.com/images/misc/progress.gif" alt="" />                                                                <a id="qr_108006" class='quickreply' href="https://livingfaithforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=108006&noquote=1" rel="nofollow" title="Quick reply to this message"><img id="replyimg_108006" src="https://livingfaithforum.com/clear.gif" alt="Quick reply to this message" /> Reply</a>                     <span class="seperator">&nbsp;</span>                                                                <a id="qrwq_108006" class="newreply" href="https://livingfaithforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=108006" rel="nofollow" title="Reply With Quote"><img id="quoteimg_108006" src="https://livingfaithforum.com/clear.gif" alt="Reply With Quote" />  Reply With Quote</a>                     <span class="seperator">&nbsp;</span>                                                                 <a class="multiquote" href="https://livingfaithforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=108006" rel="nofollow" onclick="return false;" id="mq_108006" title="Multi-Quote This Message"><img id="mq_image_108006" src="https://livingfaithforum.com/clear.gif" alt="Multi-Quote This Message" />&nbsp;</a>                                     </span>                <span class="postlinking">                                                                                    <a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=108006&securitytoken=1590130208-ad2bce7ea42a7fe391cdcf8012f752241f400e14" id="post_thanks_button_108006" onclick="return post_thanks_give(108006, false);" style="display:none" rel="nofollow" class="post_thanks_button">Thanks</a><span class="seperator" id="post_thanks_separator_108006" style="display:none">&nbsp;</span><a rel="nofollow" class="blog" href="https://livingfaithforum.com/blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=108006"><!-- <img src="https://livingfaithforum.com/images/misc/blog/blogpost_40b.png" alt="Blog this Post" />--> Blog this Post</a>                    <span class="seperator">&nbsp;</span>                                                                                                                            &nbsp;<a class="report" href="https://livingfaithforum.com/report.php?p=108006" rel="nofollow" title="Report Post"><!-- <img src="https://livingfaithforum.com/images/buttons/report-40b.png" alt="Report Post" /> -->&nbsp;</a> &nbsp; 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    Can you write all this from scratch? Some of us can, most can't.

    And in a way the WCF is similar TT. The Bible is not always easy to understand, even determining the genre can be fun. And very few of us are teachers. So the WCF takes 33 important topics and puts into easier to understand words what lots and lots of very intelligent, learned, Bible studying Christians believe is the consistent teaching of Scripture about God and other stuff.

    It is not in any way "elevated to the same level as inspired scripture" but as it is accepted as a correct interpretation of Scripture it is often used to explain things (if you ever read it you might understand that). But see why tell you to run the move command under the command prompt (the command being of the form "MOVE [/Y | /-Y] [drive:][path]filename1[,...] destination") when I can tell you to click and drag a file to where you want it?

    As for the idea that the God who created the universe for a purpose, the end of which we are not told, but currently leading up to the formation of the "body of Christ" celebrating the Supper of the Lamb, actually wanting to decide what He'd end up rather than being happy to end up with something totally random (if anything at all) in the hands of His evil, rebellious, utterly sinful creation and having to put up with it for eternity, yep, how dumb is that?

  7. #27
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Hey TT, did you see the post where I asked about people going to heaven without being given a choice?

    No, nope, nada, nah

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    No, nope, nada, nah
    Well here it is again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    .... You know that most non-Calvinists believe that young children that die are deemed innocent by God and go to heaven. ....
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    ....

    I know but that seems to me to contradict their "it has to be our choice", "God's unjust if He forces anyone" ideas. TT said I was picking out non-reformed specks, but to me the idea that God has very different rules for different folks based on age and mental ability seems to be a long bit of 4 be 2 in the non-calvinist system.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Behind what you see posted in your original post TT is lots of "stuff". Here's a summary

    On the Wrath of God- is it an essential or fundamental attribute of God?-capture-jpg

    And all that is in the following CODE box for you to look at. Scroll across for all 8000 characters.


    Code:
        <div class="posthead">            <span class="postdate old">                                    <span class="date">05-21-2020,*<span class="time">07:39 PM</span></span>                            </span>            <span class="nodecontrols">                                    <a name="post108006" href="8348-wrath-god-essential-fundamental-attribute-god-post108006.html#post108006" class="postcounter">#20</a><a id="postcount108006" name="20"></a>                                                            </span>    </div>    <div class="postdetails">        <div class="userinfo">            <div class="username_container">                            <div class="popupmenu memberaction">    <a class="username offline popupctrl" href="https://livingfaithforum.com/members/12.html" title="Cardinal TT is offline"><strong>Cardinal TT</strong></a>    <ul class="popupbody popuphover memberaction_body">        <li class="left">            <a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/members/12.html" class="siteicon_profile">                View Profile            </a>        </li>                <li class="right">            <a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=12&contenttype=vBForum_Post&showposts=1" class="siteicon_forum" rel="nofollow">                View Forum Posts            </a>        </li>                        <li class="left">            <a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/private.php?do=newpm&u=12" class="siteicon_message" rel="nofollow">                Private Message            </a>        </li>                                <li class="right">            <a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/blogs/cardinal-tt/" class="siteicon_blog" rel="nofollow">                View Blog Entries            </a>        </li>                                                <li class="right">            <a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/authors/12-cardinal-tt/" class="siteicon_article" rel="nofollow">                View Articles            </a>        </li>                        <li class="left">            <a rel="nofollow" href="https://livingfaithforum.com/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=12" class="siteicon_add">                Add as Contact            </a>        </li>                            </ul></div>                <img class="inlineimg onlinestatus" src="https://livingfaithforum.com/images/statusicon/user-offline.png" alt="Cardinal TT is offline" border="0" />                        </div>            <span class="usertitle">                Senior Member            </span>                                                            <a class="postuseravatar" href="https://livingfaithforum.com/members/12.html" title="Cardinal TT is offline">                <img src="https://livingfaithforum.com/avatars/cardinal-tt?dateline=1534851427" alt="Cardinal TT's Avatar" title="Cardinal TT's Avatar" />            </a>                                         <hr />                <dl class="userinfo_extra">                    <dt>Join Date</dt> <dd>Jul 2015</dd>                                                            <dt>Posts</dt> <dd>6,036</dd>                            <!-- Thanks --><tr><td class="legacystats"><div align="center"><span class="legacytext">Thanked: 4095</span></div></td></tr><!-- /Thanks --><dt>Blog Entries</dt><dd><a href="https://livingfaithforum.com/blogs/cardinal-tt/">1</a></dd>                </dl>                                                <div class="imlinks">                                        </div>                    </div>        <div class="postbody">            <div class="postrow">                                                                                                                                                    <div class="content">                    <div id="post_message_108006">                        <blockquote class="postcontent restore ">                            This is a great video that confirms my previous comments about Calvinism<br /><br />The Westminster Confesion is elevated to the same level as inspired scripture to make a definitive authoritative statement regarding God and his character. It is a form of idolatry to idolise this confession.<br /><br />The argument that those that don't believe in the above confession are atheists is nonsensical gobbledegook and embarrassing that Christians could be so gullible.<br /><br />This video convinces me to reject Reformed teaching and in regard to apologetics of the faith and debating unbelievers is totally useless.<br />The belief that God 100% pre-ordains everything that occurs is one of the dumbest teachings to ever come forth from believers<br /><br />I feel better getting that off my chest <img src="https://livingfaithforum.com/images/smilies/groovy.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Groovy" class="inlineimg" /><br /><br /><br /><div class="bbcode_container">    <div class="bbcode_quote">        <div class="quote_container">            <div class="bbcode_quote_container"></div>                            <div class="bbcode_postedby">                    <img src="https://livingfaithforum.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png" alt="Quote" /> Originally Posted by <strong>FunFromOz</strong>                    <a href="8348-wrath-god-essential-fundamental-attribute-god-post108003.html#post108003" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="https://livingfaithforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" alt="View Post" /></a>                </div>                <div class="message">Not sure if this does either, but it is a very challenging 3min 45secs<br /><br /><iframe class="restrain" title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/tnu7mCsZ8Kw?wmode=opaque" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></div>                    </div>    </div></div>                        </blockquote>                    </div>                                    </div>            </div>                        <div class="cleardiv"></div>        </div>    </div>        <div class="postfoot">            <!-- <div class="postfoot_container"> -->            <div class="textcontrols floatcontainer">   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    Can you write all this from scratch? Some of us can, most can't.

    And in a way the WCF is similar TT. The Bible is not always easy to understand, even determining the genre can be fun. And very few of us are teachers. So the WCF takes 33 important topics and puts into easier to understand words what lots and lots of very intelligent, learned, Bible studying Christians believe is the consistent teaching of Scripture about God and other stuff.

    It is not in any way "elevated to the same level as inspired scripture" but as it is accepted as a correct interpretation of Scripture it is often used to explain things (if you ever read it you might understand that). But see why tell you to run the move command under the command prompt (the command being of the form "MOVE [/Y | /-Y] [drive:][path]filename1[,...] destination") when I can tell you to click and drag a file to where you want it?

    As for the idea that the God who created the universe for a purpose, the end of which we are not told, but currently leading up to the formation of the "body of Christ" celebrating the Supper of the Lamb, actually wanting to decide what He'd end up rather than being happy to end up with something totally random (if anything at all) in the hands of His evil, rebellious, utterly sinful creation and having to put up with it for eternity, yep, how dumb is that?
    I know you didn't actually say that but what you said above sounds like the WCF should be held as more authorative than scripture for the simple reason that every interpretation of scripture is to comply to the WCF.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    FFO

    In regard to children dying and going to heaven when they don't have a choice ...it is a perfect example of God exercising his sovereignty which is 100% compatible with his character of love and mercy.

    I believe in God's sovereignty and this is a good example as it compliments scripture when James says 'mercy triumphs over judgment' and God doesn't send children to hell if they haven't reached accountability

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