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Thread: Not Afraid of the Anti-Christ-Why we don't believe in a pre-trib rapture--Brown & Keener

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    Not Afraid of the Anti-Christ-Why we don't believe in a pre-trib rapture--Brown & Keener

    I started a bible study the other night with this book. It asks some great questions to make folks think about what the scriptures actually say concerning tribulation and the rapture of the church.


    Pre-Tribulationism says that believers will be snatched from this world to heaven suddenly and without warning.
    Can you find even a single Scripture that explicitly says this?

    Pre-Tribulationism says the rapture will come before the Tribulation.
    Can you find even a single Scripture that explicitly says this?

    1 Corinthians 15:23-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

    23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
    What is the last enemy to be put down?

    If death is the last enemy, how does its defeat at our resurrection leave room for an anti-christ or other enemies after our resurrection, which we expect at the Church's Rapture?


    1 Corinthians 15:50-55 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Our Final Victory

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.[/B] For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

    55
    “O[b] Death, where is your sting?
    O Hades, where is your victory?”

    In verses 50-52, the resurrected inherit God's Kingdom, presumably needing resurrection bodies to do so. This resurrection happens at the LAST TRUMPET.

    But how many trumpets can sound after the last one?


    Granted, Paul cannot have in mind the trumpets in the book of Revelation, which had not been written yet. But as we shall see later, Paul surely knew Jesus' teaching about His return. Can this last trumpet, then, precede the trumpet of Matthew 24:29-31?


    I highly recommend this book!



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    I rarely speak of the rapture in ANY church I have pastored in the past 30 years. The sign by the side of the road is no longer relevant to the denom that it might be under. Biggest factor is the need to be saved and no compromise to scriptures. The church has become such a melting pot of theology and doctrines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireBrand View Post
    I rarely speak of the rapture in ANY church I have pastored in the past 30 years. The sign by the side of the road is no longer relevant to the denom that it might be under. Biggest factor is the need to be saved and no compromise to scriptures. The church has become such a melting pot of theology and doctrines.


    This is a first for me. I have mentioned several times that when He comes we need to be ready no matter what.

    I learned the "Left Behind" pre-trib rapture theory when I was first saved. Even then I had questions that the teaching pastor couldn't satisfactorily answer for me.

    It just never set well in my spirit as I read the bible for myself. I did not see it.

    These guys (Keener and Brown) have put words and scriptural study to the thoughts I have held.

    I believe that great tribulation has been happening since Jesus was crucified. We have just not experienced it in the west like they do in many places around the world.

    The introduction to this book really hits hard. He tells about teaching a bunch of pastors over in Yelwa Africa and then years later word came to him that the Christian population there had been wiped out by muslims. When a few Christians fought back a while later, the news reported that "Christians had massacred people in the Muslim town of Yelwa".

    I worry that some who have bought in to the "God will rapture us away before it gets really bad" doctrine will lose their faith or think that God has forsaken them if and when they encounter something like this.


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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    This is good food for discussion. In their opening statement they say
    On the contrary, the Church always has been and always will be persecuted as long as we are in the world, but this is not the same as the wrath of God poured out during the Tribulation.
    What they are doing is tying the Wrath of God with the Tribulation. This sets them up for the "We are not appointed to wrath" argument that they use to prove their THEORY. However, you cannot find a single scripture which actually ties the two together.

    Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.The Rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Doesn’t it strike you as odd that Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the Second Coming of Christ, does not mention a resurrection? The Rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention of it here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The Rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't occur at the second coming.
    They have taken 19:11-21 out of context. The verses before that say that there is a multitude in heaven and the Marriage of the Lamb, which is the resurrection.

    Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the Second Coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.
    Verse 5 says the Lord will come with ALL HIS SAINTS. We cannot be with him if we haven't been resurrected.


    Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.In the Old Testament, two different pictures are paintedof the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these Scriptures, we can see that they predicted two separate comingsof the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call the Raptureand the Second Coming.
    This would mean that there is a 3rd coming. The scriptures support no such theory.


    Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown DayConcerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't knowand a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4).This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events



    Again, they are trying to say that there is a 3rd coming of the LORD. No scripture supports a 3rd coming.


    Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the Rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the Second Coming.

    Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This seems to be a prophetic reference to the Rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase"Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.
    "Seems to be" and "We believe" are not scripture.

    Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the Rapture(2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders could not have received their crowns unless the resurrection (Rapture) had taken place
    2 thoughts on this:
    1. Where does it say that these 24 Elders are the saints of God?
    2. It could be the Prophets and Apostles, for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

    (These are just my immediate thoughts)

    Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous Rapture
    How many saints have gone home to the Lord since Jesus Ascended into heaven?


    Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some wrongly believe that "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.
    Nope. Revelation 3:10 says that the church in Philadelphia would be kept from the hour of trial which is coming. It doesn't say "Us" as in the church today. That goes with the "Each church in Asia Minor is a picture of a different church age or dispensation" theory.

    Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment. When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the Second Coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the Rapture. There is ahuge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrectedat this time, why would we need angelsto gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30)andable to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the Rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

    That goes against scripture:

    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

    6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

    Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and the righteous are left behind. These verses point to two separate events, the Rapture and the Second Coming

    1 Thess 4:13-17 do not say that the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. It says nothing about the wicked. It does however reinforce my earlier point about the armies coming with Him (verse 14).

    Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.When Jesus returns to earth at the Second Coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the Rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.
    He is returning FOR a wedding, not FROM a wedding. 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 says He is coming to be admired among "all those who believe". The wicked will certainly not be admiring Him. It is talking about the church.

    Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, and not us to receive Him(John 14:2-3). Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, and then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the Rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the Rapture occurred at the same time as the Second Coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3
    He will receive us, on the way down. At least if you believe the writings of Paul.
    There is not a scripture that I can think of that explicitly says we will not join the army of saints and angels who are with Him when He comes with His might angels in flaming fire taking vengeance (wrath) on those who don't know God.


    Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the Rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler

    What they believe is one theory of who it is that restrains. However, it says "He who now restrains".
    I cannot think of any scripture that refers to the church as "He".
    My theory is that Paul is referring to the Holy Spirit, who will restrain until the Father says to stop restraining. (again, just my immediate thoughts).

    Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)If the Rapture occurred at the Second Coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the Second Coming? A Rapture at the Second Coming would have already separated the sheep from the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, the many people saved after the Rapture will need to be separated from the goats after the Second Coming
    2 Thessalonians chapter 1 again says that there will be a separation when He comes. Those who don't know God will be destroyed in fire as everything melts with a fervent heat. Those who are believing and waiting will join Jesus and the army of saints He brings with Him in the air.

    Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?If the Rapture occurs at the Second Coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the Millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, the people saved after the Rapture who are alive at the Second Coming will populate the earth during the Millennium (For further explanation on this point, seethe article"Who will populate the millennium?").
    The millennium refers to Revelation 20 where it says that the saints will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.
    I am not sure that John meant an actual 1000 years. One school of thought is John was saying they will reign with Christ for a long long time, and not an exact 1000 years.

    There have been millions of saints with Jesus since His ascension. During the birth and spreading of Islam, millions were beheaded because they would not deny Jesus Christ as their Lord. Revelation 20 specifically says "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

    I don't understand all of it brother Nikos. I don't think anyone here would say they do. And it is not a doctrine to break fellowship over. It is very interesting to study and debate.

    As I go through the other chapters in the book for our bible study, I plan on adding more thoughts as they hit me.

    Most importantly, you must remember: When He comes, we go. When we go, I'll look you up in person and we'll share a cup of that new wine Jesus talked about.


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    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    I would never teach from a book that was against the Rapture. I prefer the Bible and then pointing out the different viewpoints as I teach the Scripture. I don't want my people to go around quoting Brown as much as the Bible itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    I would never teach from a book that was against the Rapture. I prefer the Bible and then pointing out the different viewpoints as I teach the Scripture. I don't want my people to go around quoting Brown as much as the Bible itself.
    No one is "quoting Brown". The thoughts I just posted in response to your link were my own thoughts from the scriptures. I would hope you have enough respect to at least put as much effort in reading my post as I spent answering their paper on the topic.

    Please read what I responded to their 16 points, brother.

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    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    No one is "quoting Brown".
    If you teach from books written by mortal, fallible human beings, get ready, THEY WILL!!

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    Not Afraid of the Anti-Christ-Why we don't believe in a pre-trib rapture--Brown & Keener-xa-jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Not Afraid of the Anti-Christ-Why we don't believe in a pre-trib rapture--Brown & Keener-xa-jpg
    All that is is some person's opinion put down on paper. It shows why your argument holds no water. Everybody does what you accuse Zeke of doing, including yourself.

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