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Thread: Not Afraid of the Anti-Christ-Why we don't believe in a pre-trib rapture--Brown & Keener

  1. #11
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    This is good food for discussion. In their opening statement they say


    What they are doing is tying the Wrath of God with the Tribulation. This sets them up for the "We are not appointed to wrath" argument that they use to prove their THEORY. However, you cannot find a single scripture which actually ties the two together.



    They have taken 19:11-21 out of context. The verses before that say that there is a multitude in heaven and the Marriage of the Lamb, which is the resurrection.



    Verse 5 says the Lord will come with ALL HIS SAINTS. We cannot be with him if we haven't been resurrected.




    This would mean that there is a 3rd coming. The scriptures support no such theory.







    Again, they are trying to say that there is a 3rd coming of the LORD. No scripture supports a 3rd coming.




    "Seems to be" and "We believe" are not scripture.



    2 thoughts on this:
    1. Where does it say that these 24 Elders are the saints of God?
    2. It could be the Prophets and Apostles, for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

    (These are just my immediate thoughts)



    How many saints have gone home to the Lord since Jesus Ascended into heaven?




    Nope. Revelation 3:10 says that the church in Philadelphia would be kept from the hour of trial which is coming. It doesn't say "Us" as in the church today. That goes with the "Each church in Asia Minor is a picture of a different church age or dispensation" theory.




    That goes against scripture:

    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

    6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.




    1 Thess 4:13-17 do not say that the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. It says nothing about the wicked. It does however reinforce my earlier point about the armies coming with Him (verse 14).



    He is returning FOR a wedding, not FROM a wedding. 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 says He is coming to be admired among "all those who believe". The wicked will certainly not be admiring Him. It is talking about the church.



    He will receive us, on the way down. At least if you believe the writings of Paul.
    There is not a scripture that I can think of that explicitly says we will not join the army of saints and angels who are with Him when He comes with His might angels in flaming fire taking vengeance (wrath) on those who don't know God.





    What they believe is one theory of who it is that restrains. However, it says "He who now restrains".
    I cannot think of any scripture that refers to the church as "He".
    My theory is that Paul is referring to the Holy Spirit, who will restrain until the Father says to stop restraining. (again, just my immediate thoughts).



    2 Thessalonians chapter 1 again says that there will be a separation when He comes. Those who don't know God will be destroyed in fire as everything melts with a fervent heat. Those who are believing and waiting will join Jesus and the army of saints He brings with Him in the air.



    The millennium refers to Revelation 20 where it says that the saints will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.
    I am not sure that John meant an actual 1000 years. One school of thought is John was saying they will reign with Christ for a long long time, and not an exact 1000 years.

    There have been millions of saints with Jesus since His ascension. During the birth and spreading of Islam, millions were beheaded because they would not deny Jesus Christ as their Lord. Revelation 20 specifically says "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

    I don't understand all of it brother Nikos. I don't think anyone here would say they do. And it is not a doctrine to break fellowship over. It is very interesting to study and debate.

    As I go through the other chapters in the book for our bible study, I plan on adding more thoughts as they hit me.

    Most importantly, you must remember: When He comes, we go. When we go, I'll look you up in person and we'll share a cup of that new wine Jesus talked about.

    Just an opinion.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    It shows why your argument holds no water.
    That's your opinion.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Just an opinion.
    That is mostly what a discussion on Eschatology ends up being; opinions based upon scriptural interpretation.


    The article from the link you posted was also just opinion.


    Some of us find this can be an interesting study/discussion without getting our hackles up over any one end time view.

    What is dangerous is a mindset that is so set in concrete that it won't even look at other possible meanings of the scriptures used, especially when they are put back into their original context.

    Scripture declares that knowledge will increase. As it does, certain things will come to light and we may need to adjust our understanding and admit that we didn't and still don't have ALL the answers to every theological debate, especially when it comes to eschatology.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post


    Scripture declares that knowledge will increase. As it does, certain things will come to light and we may need to adjust our understanding and admit that we didn't and still don't have ALL the answers to every theological debate, especially when it comes to eschatology.

    Sounds like Daniel 12:4

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    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Pre-trib is the most scriptural view.

  8. #16
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Pre-trib is the most scriptural view.
    That is what we are discussing Nikos. You say that without showing or discussing the proof.

    I used scripture to answer most of the points made on the link you posted. It is good to be able to discuss scriptures. Iron sharpens iron.

    When one uses the moniker "Blank is the most scriptural" then they should also be able to show why that is there position. They should also be able to refute (at least in their opinion) why the scriptures used by the other side do not line up. This is exactly what the Book being discussed is doing. The are refuting the most used scriptures for a pre-trib rapture of the church.

    As students/lovers/teachers of the Word of God we should be able to honestly look at such "opinions" and be able to see why or why not they actually line up with scripture. IMHO That is the most healthy place for us to be in.




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  10. #17
    good grief.. pre/post/mid.. none.. N.O.N.E of that has any bearing on salvation.

    Revelation and the rest of the prophetic re: Jesus coming again, are vague and non-distinct.
    We're told no one knows day/time .. don't you think God did that on purpose so we wouldn't fall into arguments that benefit no one?

    Discussing, tossing around ideas are great and cause each other to think about it, but there is no definite answer.

  11. #18
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    An honest look at scriptures leaves one with the conclusion that _pre-Trib fits the Scripture.

    Luke 21
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Romans 5:9
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    1 Thessalonians 1:10
    10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Revelation 3:10
    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

  12. #19
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    An honest look at scriptures leaves one with the conclusion that _pre-Trib fits the Scripture.

    Luke 21
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    And in context it looks like this:
    Luke 21:25-36 New King James Version (NKJV)
    The Coming of the Son of Man

    25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”


    29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.


    34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
    This goes right along with 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.

    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

    6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
    When He comes, it will be 1 more time. There is not a 3rd coming in scripture. He is coming and taking vengeance on those who do not know God and at the same time He is coming for His bride, who will meet Him in the air and join the army of the Saints.

    This is also backed up by Peter:
    2 Peter 3:10-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
    The Day of the Lord

    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
    When is He coming?

    I believe that He gives us 3 very strong clues in the book of Revelation:

    Revelation 16:15 New King James Version (NKJV)

    15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
    That is between the 6th and 7th Bowl.

    Revelation 10:7 New King James Version (NKJV)

    7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
    That is between the 6th and 7th Trumpet. I believe that the mystery of God is the church. Can anyone think of anything else it might be?




    Revelation 7:9-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

    “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
    Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
    Be to our God forever and ever.
    Amen.”

    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

    14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

    So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
    This happens between the 6th and 7th Seals. I believe that these are 3 different accounts/pictures of the rapture.








    Romans 5:9
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


    1 Thessalonians 1:10
    10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    As I pointed out when answering the paper you posted the link to, this is true, we are not appointed to God's wrath. However, His wrath and the tribulation are 2 different things.

    Revelation 3:10
    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    As I also pointed out when answering that same paper, this was addressed to a specific church (Philadelphia) at a certain time. It is taken out of context to try and prove a pre-trib view.


    Thank you for taking the time to post those scriptures brother Nikos. I am glad to see you engaging in an interesting discussion.

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  14. #20
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    The Word proves Pre-trib. You love to tweak Scriptures.

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