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Thread: Prophetic ministry

  1. #61
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    And therein lies my questions on Biblical support for things. I wrote "preaching" you wrote "teachers". You switch from teacher to prophet in the one sentence (I quoted a review, I haven't said I agree with it). Paul multiple times links preaching to the Gospel, linked to the unsaved. Teaching is for the saved. A prophet, as I see it, is saying something specific that God says so has to be correct as God does not lie. A teacher teaches what he knows which will be limited. He may lie, but also he may just be incorrect.

    The review quoted says "When it communicates God's authentic, living, Word, this may be called prophecy" and that may be true. But that's still communicating what's in Scripture is it not. That's not the same as someone giving themselves the title Prophet and claiming God specifically told them ex Biblical stuff is it?
    Some of the same people that denounce prophets who prophesy falsely as "false prophets" based on OT law also claim that teaching or preaching qualifies as a form of prophecy. Then they are lenient on preachers and teachers and allow them to correct their mistakes without declaring them false teachers. See the hypocrisy involved with this ?

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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Some of the same people that denounce prophets who prophesy falsely as "false prophets" based on OT law also claim that teaching or preaching qualifies as a form of prophecy. Then they are lenient on preachers and teachers and allow them to correct their mistakes without declaring them false teachers. See the hypocrisy involved with this ?
    Yes you are right, there are "also claim(s) that teaching or preaching qualifies as a form of prophecy". As I'm not convinced I ask people for Scripture.

    But from memory of early teaching there are two different things. There is the office of the prophet (Eph 4) which is for the edification and building up of the church and Paul tells the Ephesian gentiles that "you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets".

    On the other hand we have gifts/ ministries/ effects one of which is prophesy (the 7th of nine actually) whom "the Spirit ... distribut(es) to each one individually just as He wills". And Paul says that he wishes we all would prophesy. So are they not different.

    Yes prophets and teachers are in Eph 4, and teachers are held accountable (Jam 3:1), but they don't get up and say "God says ...". Where is the edification and building up of the church when someone claims "God said ..." when He didn't.

  4. #63
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Yes you are right, .
    The problem you have FFO is that many believers would say your favorite ministers teach heresy
    On one hand you declare you stand for the integrity of scriptural prophecy but embrace the teaching of lies IF indeed aspects of RD are lies

    It becomes difficult for readers to accept what you say about charismatic gifts because it looks like you swallow camels (RD)
    Many want RD ministers held to account for false teaching but you actually promote them

    So it becomes a circular argument

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    The problem you have FFO is that many believers would say your favorite ministers teach heresy
    Many do say that, even though every church council that has discussed the issue disagrees, even though every falling away of the church has been away from such beliefs, even though so many of those people who speak thus say they understanding the teaching but their words prove beyond doubt that they don't. But let's put that aside.

    A guy in the late 1800s named Robert Shindler on the subject of Churches falling away wrote, "The first step astray is a want of adequate faith in the divine inspiration of the sacred Scriptures. All the while a man bows to the authority of God's Word, he will not entertain any sentiment contrary to it's teaching. "To the law and to the testimony," is his appeal concerning every doctrine". That TT is why I keep asking for Scripture to back what is being said. Shindler goes on to say, "But let a man question, or entertain low views of the inspiration and authority of the Bible, and he is without chart to guide him, and without without anchor to hold him".

    Now that last quote is not to imply that anyone is questioning the inspiration or authority of the Bible, but as the Psalmist in Ps 109 says "Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path". The Church is strong when it sticks to Scripture. If Scripture says something, believe it. If Scripture says something and later changes things, then believe the second thing. If Scripture says nothing about something then don't just make things up.

    There is a lot of scope in what we do "in God", what we do "in Church", but if anyone does "God things" then would you not agree that the less direct support we have from Scripture the more careful we have to be to do things correctly, and we have to be careful to stay very close to what we know from Scripture to be Biblically valid.

  6. #65
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    On this topic....why do we assume OT prophets were never wrong in anything they said? Hear me out...we KNOW what is recorded is confirmed and accurate, even where God revealed a false prophet. But only ONE prophet was it said of that not a word fell to the ground. I tend to think we elevate prophets to too high of standard when in fact we should just be evaluating prophecy scripturally, by Holy Spirit and mostly by watching. I do not accept claims of being a prophet or rejection of one because someone judges what they say as a failed word. And I allow a little room for simply misunderstanding a word, not a lot of room, but some...so as Colonel said we tend to say preachers prophecy yet give them ample room to correct....I especially give room for those who believe they received a prophetic word but hold no claim to the 'calling' of prophet. When the prophetic word came to one about Paul going to Jerusalem they begged him not to go. So they only saw in part.

  7. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    On this topic....why do we assume OT prophets were never wrong in anything they said? .
    In Ezekiel 13:9 we read "So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations" so we can't. Also in Jer 14:14 we read "Then the LORD said to me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke to them..."

    However the rule they lived under is in Deut 18:20 and is "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, ... is to be put to death".

    If they say the things God has commanded them to say than that will be right will it not?

    At times though they say things out of "self" and are wrong and should be put death.

    Even though we have the advantage of being born again, of each having the Holy Spirit in us, people today are willing to claim they're a "Prophet", but even with those two advantages want to be held to a lower standard.

    What does that say?

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  9. #67
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    However the rule they lived under is in Deut 18:20 and is "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, ... is to be put to death".
    That works as well with teachers and preachers as it does with prophets today. If you want to apply the Law today then make sure that you apply it wherever it does in fact fit.

  10. #68
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Yes you are right, there are "also claim(s) that teaching or preaching qualifies as a form of prophecy". As I'm not convinced I ask people for Scripture.

    But from memory of early teaching there are two different things. There is the office of the prophet (Eph 4) which is for the edification and building up of the church and Paul tells the Ephesian gentiles that "you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets".

    On the other hand we have gifts/ ministries/ effects one of which is prophesy (the 7th of nine actually) whom "the Spirit ... distribut(es) to each one individually just as He wills". And Paul says that he wishes we all would prophesy. So are they not different.

    Yes prophets and teachers are in Eph 4, and teachers are held accountable (Jam 3:1), but they don't get up and say "God says ...". Where is the edification and building up of the church when someone claims "God said ..." when He didn't.
    Yes, they are two different ministries in the NT but not really in the OT. The OT office includes anyone who "speaks on behalf of God", which would include anyone who pretends to lay out and define "the true meaning" of scripture in an authorative manner.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    On this topic....why do we assume OT prophets were never wrong in anything they said? Hear me out...we KNOW what is recorded is confirmed and accurate, even where God revealed a false prophet. But only ONE prophet was it said of that not a word fell to the ground. I tend to think we elevate prophets to too high of standard when in fact we should just be evaluating prophecy scripturally, by Holy Spirit and mostly by watching. I do not accept claims of being a prophet or rejection of one because someone judges what they say as a failed word. And I allow a little room for simply misunderstanding a word, not a lot of room, but some...so as Colonel said we tend to say preachers prophecy yet give them ample room to correct....I especially give room for those who believe they received a prophetic word but hold no claim to the 'calling' of prophet. When the prophetic word came to one about Paul going to Jerusalem they begged him not to go. So they only saw in part.
    One characteristic of God's prophets in the Bible - especially in the Old Testament - is that they were willing to deliver bad news that people didn't want to hear. Nathan told King David that his son would die, Jeremiah prophesied disaster, the minor prophets foretold disaster, Micaiah prophesied that King Ahab would be killed by the Arameans (even when all the other 'prophets' claimed that Ahab would be victorious), etc.

    Of the multiple modern prophets today, especially in America - who fits that description? People like Shamp, Kerr, etc. spout off a constant stream of good-sounding prophecies that tickle the ears of the people who hear them (since it's always something their audience wants to hear.) When's the last time they prophesied something that went against what the majority of their listeners wanted? (That's not including, of course, the fact that they have uttered prophecies that were proven to be completely false, too.)

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  13. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That works as well with teachers and preachers as it does with prophets today. If you want to apply the Law today then make sure that you apply it wherever it does in fact fit.
    I disagree. I see a big difference between saying "(based on my study and limited understanding I believe) the Bible teaches ...." and "God spoke to me personally and what He says is ...."

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