Thread: Calvinist Tactics Exposed

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

I'm offline for a few days. Balloon ride for my birthday.

Happy Birthday. Enjoy it with family and friends





(BTW you are very welcome to visit me when you come west - I will put away my 6 shooter )

Oz: Instead of continually making negative statements that add no value because they don't really say anything would it be too much effort, as I "do not understand (my) own doctrinal position", for you to show me where I misunderstand it?

Perhaps, to you, my comments don't say anything. But do the scriptures say anything? I think so.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

The Scripture is clear. I will leave you with the Word.

Good scriptures Nikos
Just from what you posted above it is clearly evident that God has the whole world in mind for redemption.

To conclude that the world = elect is eisegesis.
The problem arises because Reformed doctrine has decided to make the world = elect and every scripture must be read with that specific doctrinal mentality.

I believe Calvinism's greatest distortion of God's character has to with his being a righteous judge of mankind according to the Bible. Love could possibly be particular but justice requires equality.

Originally Posted by Colonel

I believe Calvinism's greatest distortion of God's character has to with his being a righteous judge of mankind according to the Bible. Love could possibly be particular but justice requires equality.

Can you explain that more

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

Good scriptures Nikos
Just from what you posted above it is clearly evident that God has the whole world in mind for redemption.

To conclude that the world = elect is eisegesis.
The problem arises because Reformed doctrine has decided to make the world = elect and every scripture must be read with that specific doctrinal mentality.

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

Was pondering the contention between God sending Jesus to die for the whole world versus he only died for the elect.

I decided to look at it from the viewpoint of God's character of love or wrath

The scriptures teach clearly God is love but they do not teach God is wrath. Wrath comes from God's righteousness being violated. It is a response to sin.

In a perfect world in Eden, God's character of love and relationship was PRIMARY. Everything he did was Good.

Adam and Eve only knew God IS Love as his perfect nature. His love was not a second or third response or due to circumstances. Love is his very being and character.

When we look at wrath there is nothing in scripture to declare God is wrath as part of his primary nature. Wrath is always a secondary response.
God never acts in wrath as a first cause. When Jesus got angry it was a response to evil it did not come from his foundational nature.

The emphasis by FFO and the Reformed position is to basically place Love and wrath on the same level.
Is this truly a reflection of scripture and God's character??

When we look at the end of Revelation what ultimately prevails ...God's love into eternity.
The creation will one day ONLY ever know his character of love. Loves lasts forever.

Reformed will say...What about the damned in hell?
Hell is real...wrath is real but is it the nature of God like love.
Unsaved will experience wrath forever but that number will NEVER increase in eternity.
Wrath does not exist in God's kingdom but love permeates God's kingdom.
Wrath stays in hell it is contained in one place and never grows outward.
If wrath was truly part of God's nature there would be scriptural evidence of wrath at work in heaven where there is no sin. It would be something that lasts forever in the next age.

Satan we know is a liar and deceiver. He seeks to pervert everything about God.
I believe according to what we know of satan he would clearly attack God's highest nature of love.
He would want to distort that God's love is not his primary character and look for ways to minimise it to humans.

I know I was extreme when saying satan was the one who invented Jesus didn't die for the whole world and God doesn't love everyone.
But considering the evil character of satan it makes perfect sense for him to introduce that concept into the hearts of people and even believers via the Reformed position.

It may seem offensive but there is credible evidence when we contemplate scripture and see how satan is intent on perverting God's goodness.

If wrath was part of God's character he would want us to develop wrath but below we find what God wants us to develop?

1 Cor 13:13 - And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Well said TT. You say it much better than I do. Excellent points. And so true.

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

Can you explain that more

I suppose God could fall in love with "elect" persons and favor those and disregard the others. But he cannot set himself up as righteous judge of all mankind and then treat people according to different standards, forcefully regenerating one sinner and not the other, sending one sinner to hell and not the other. An application of justice requires equality as its fundament, as the Bible itself teaches about human beings but also about God.

Originally Posted by Smitty

Why is this? Until salvation has been granted by the Father, and the Father draws us to Christ, we will have no desire for Him (John 6:44, 65).
God must awaken our soul and give us a desire for Christ before we will ever be inclined to choose Him.
To be sure, for us to choose Christ, God must change our heart. That is precisely what He does.
He changes our heart for us. He gives us a desire for Himself that we otherwise would not have.
.

I agree with some of the things you wrote but the above seems contradictory unless you explain it further

God doesn't give us salvation (save us first) so we have a desire for Christ and God doesn't awaken our soul (save us) before we are drawn to Christ.
The salvation/awakening and desire is in the wrong order

If you look at the salvation of Paul he heard the gospel previously on many occasions. He heard Stephen preach the gospel and was one of those who resisted the gospel and agreed to the stoning.
Jesus said to him 'It is hard for you to kick against the goads' - this means the Holy Spirit was continuously convicting Paul and he was using his free will to resist and reject the conviction.

Paul knew and understood the gospel but he hardened his heart and rejected it. God did a sovereign act of forcefully confronting Paul. He had no desire nor was he awakened as a baby with no consciousness of what happened. Paul was confronted with the truth and he had to choose Christ.

Most believers don't have what Paul had but they hear the gospel and through the gospel God convicts them and begins to work on their heart. This work can take many forms and one of the forms is that a 'desire' for Christ can form and Christ becomes appealing to the sinner.

This happened in my heart. I heard the gospel and over time I began to have a longing and desire for Christ. I was becoming more interested in God and spiritual matters BUT I was still not saved/born again.

I would one minute have a desire for Jesus and the next minute want to go out and sin my head off because I knew I still wanted my sins more than God.
I was doing what Paul did...I was rejecting the conviction because I loved my sins.

As time progressed the conviction got stronger and all my arguments for not wanting to be a christian began to fade. I knew I had to eventually choose. I was fully aware I had to choose Jesus and reject the world. I was not a baby with no sense of what was going on I was fully aware of what was happening it was very real to me.

Not everyone has the full comprehension I had before being Born Again but that was the way God took me. I lived with a desire for Christ as well as loving sins for many months but I rejected the conviction.

I KNEW I had to make a choice. I still remember the exact day when I finally chose Jesus and what occurred.
Jesus met with me powerfully after I decided to accept him as my saviour. I sensed his presence and heard his voice. I was saved and Born Again