Thread: Embarrassing Charismatics - to both God and the Church

Originally Posted by FireBrand

There it is.

It's like those that say Divine Healing ceased with the Apostles. Nonsense. I usually say to them the reason they don't see healings in their meetings is because they don't pray. They don't believe. And seriously how miopic can you get and still see??

Well Jesus said the signs follow believers (not the original apostles, etc). If you don't believe in it it's definitely not going to happen. And those that don't believe have a way of explaining it away even when you show them. So most of the time the trying to explain it is futile.

Originally Posted by fuego

Well Jesus said the signs follow believers (not the original apostles, etc). If you don't believe in it it's definitely not going to happen. And those that don't believe have a way of explaining it away even when you show them. So most of the time the trying to explain it is futile.

In regards to the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the miraculous, it is easier to say it isn't for today than it is to explain why you don't have it.

Originally Posted by Valiant Woman

"Some of His people" ????

Originally Posted by A.J.

So how do you know ...

Originally Posted by FireBrand

There it is.
...
And seriously how miopic can you get and still see??

Originally Posted by fuego

Well Jesus said the signs follow believers (not the original apostles, etc).

This is what I see in the Bible.

Jesus worked many miracles. As Peter said, "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst" (Acts 2:22)

Later we see "At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people" (Acts 5:12) and in Acts 19 we read "God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul".

However when writing to the Corinthians Paul says, "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware" ... "to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good" ... "to one is given ... through the Spirit, and to another ... according to the same Spirit; to another ..., and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another ..., and to another ..., to another ..., and to another ..." "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills" "And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? " 1Cor 12:1, 7, 8-10, 11, 28-30.

So we know that Jesus worked miracles; we know the Apostles did; but we also know that not all are Apostles and not all have the gift of healing, but only as the Holy Spirit has "distribut(ed it) to each one individually just as He wills".

By the time we get to the time of James we read "Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up" (James 5:14-15). "Will restore" seems diferent to me than "signs and wonders".

But as I said, the OP is not about anything happening. Things do. The OP is about someone going out and publicly proclaiming they're going to stop a storm; delaying what they're doing as it's "too hot" and then not stopping it.







BTW, the next question might be, "Which one of you can raise the dead?"

Originally Posted by FireBrand

In regards to the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the miraculous, it is easier to say it isn't for today than it is to explain why you don't have it.

Bingo.

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

This is what I see in the Bible.

Jesus worked many miracles. As Peter said, "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst" (Acts 2:22)

Later we see "At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people" (Acts 5:12) and in Acts 19 we read "God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul".

However when writing to the Corinthians Paul says, "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware" ... "to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good" ... "to one is given ... through the Spirit, and to another ... according to the same Spirit; to another ..., and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another ..., and to another ..., to another ..., and to another ..." "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills" "And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? " 1Cor 12:1, 7, 8-10, 11, 28-30.

So we know that Jesus worked miracles; we know the Apostles did; but we also know that not all are Apostles and not all have the gift of healing, but only as the Holy Spirit has "distribut(ed it) to each one individually just as He wills".

By the time we get to the time of James we read "Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up" (James 5:14-15). "Will restore" seems diferent to me than "signs and wonders".

But as I said, the OP is not about anything happening. Things do. The OP is about someone going out and publicly proclaiming they're going to stop a storm; delaying what they're doing as it's "too hot" and then not stopping it.







BTW, the next question might be, "Which one of you can raise the dead?"

There's no conflict between gifts of healing and healing by faith. Jesus said many times that "your faith has healed you" and in Acts 14 we see how a cripple was healed by faith. Read your Bible more instead of calvinist and cessationist narratives.

In my opinion a creative miracle restoring lifelong brain damage is a greater miracle than when someone is raised from the dead after minutes to a couple of hours. Everyone doesn't have to do everything, we are individual members that make up the body of Christ and he still performs miracles including raising the dead.

Originally Posted by Colonel

Read your Bible more

I did and quoted it to you. P.S. I'm not a cessationist. I just don't like liars and pretenders.

Originally Posted by Colonel

In my opinion a creative miracle restoring lifelong brain damage is a greater miracle than when someone is raised from the dead after minutes to a couple of hours.

A person with brain damage is alive. I had an article (but can't find the link atm) that says that brain cells start to break down, to decay, minutes after death.

Originally Posted by Colonel

Everyone doesn't have to do everything, we are individual members that make up the body of Christ and he still performs miracles including raising the dead.

OK, any time now I will be called in the middle of the night to go to a nursing home and collect the body of someone who's recently passed away. Who do I PM with the name and location so that when I get there (can take me 45 mins to an hour) the person will have been raised from the dead?

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

I did and quoted it to you. P.S. I'm not a cessationist. I just don't like liars and pretenders.

A person with brain damage is alive. I had an article (but can't find the link atm) that says that brain cells start to break down, to decay, minutes after death.

There are accounts in medical literature of people reviving after something like an hour and functioning normally. Brain damage can be temporary, it doesn't have to be permanent.

OK, any time now I will be called in the middle of the night to go to a nursing home and collect the body of someone who's recently passed away. Who do I PM with the name and location so that when I get there (can take me 45 mins to an hour) the person will have been raised from the dead?

You couldn't have done that with the apostle Paul, he had at least two coworkers whom he was unable to heal and that was while they were still alive. We've discussed this previously, you forget counter arguments rather quickly.

You couldn't have done that with Jesus Christ either, he was unable to heal more than a few people in his hometown Nazareth because of their unbelief, according to three different gospels. Again, people who were still alive.

In fact, there is no general mandate to raise the dead in the Bible. It happens, but there is no promise to the effect that everyone can be raised. So if you PM'ed Jesus he might tell you that "it's not my will to raise that person from the dead".

Your method of discussing this is exactly like what I'm used to from hardcore anti-Christian atheists and I've discussed things like this with hundreds.

Originally Posted by Colonel

There are accounts in medical literature of people reviving after something like an hour and functioning normally. Brain damage can be temporary, it doesn't have to be permanent.

If they revived they weren't dead.

Originally Posted by Colonel

You couldn't have done that with the apostle Paul, he had at least two coworkers whom he was unable to heal and that was while they were still alive. We've discussed this previously, you forget counter arguments rather quickly.

Yes I acknowledge I "forget counter arguments rather quickly" yet you still put up with me, much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Colonel

You couldn't have done that with Jesus Christ either, he was unable to heal more than a few people in his hometown Nazareth because of their unbelief, according to three different gospels. Again, people who were still alive.

In fact, there is no general mandate to raise the dead in the Bible. It happens, but there is no promise to the effect that everyone can be raised. So if you PM'ed Jesus he might tell you that "it's not my will to raise that person from the dead".

Yet people don't get embarrassed when people publicly claim they can do miraculous things whenever they want yet fail, miserably!!!

Originally Posted by Colonel

Your method of discussing this is exactly like what I'm used to from hardcore anti-Christian atheists and I've discussed things like this with hundreds.

Way my brain's wired. Sorry.

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

If they revived they weren't dead.

The point is that the body tissue isn't that damaged after an hour or so. Lazarus was severely degenerated when he was raised after four days.

Yes I acknowledge I "forget counter arguments rather quickly" yet you still put up with me, much appreciated.

Okay but that means that you don't learn much from these discussions. Difference in opinion is one thing but some of these things involve straightforward facts.

Yet people don't get embarrassed when people publicly claim they can do miraculous things whenever they want yet fail, miserably!!!

I don't know of any mainstream Charismatic preachers that claim that they can work miracles at will. I certainly cannot.

Way my brain's wired. Sorry.

Some things need to be understood at the heart level, not only at the brain level. The atheist chooses to only employ his brain with these things.