A troubling image for some.

**FunFromOz** · 08-31-2020, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by Colonel

I've done that several times in the past and I know many people that understand the explanation. You've read it many times.

You speculate that God's foreknowledge of his own actions does not imply that his actions are predetermined and you have no explanation for that. Well, the explanation for that follows the same lines as for his creatures.

Actually I don't speculate anything about God's foreknowledge of his own actions as the Bible says nothing about it (that I know of).

**FunFromOz** · 08-31-2020, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by Colonel

Sure he could have predestined everything, the real question is if he wanted to do that.

Well the Bible says He did it. So now the question becomes "Did He perhaps do what He didn't want to do?"

**Colonel** · 08-31-2020, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

Well the Bible says He did it. So now the question becomes "Did He perhaps do what He didn't want to do?"

The Bible does not say that God predestined everything.

**FunFromOz** · 08-31-2020, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Colonel

The Bible does not say that God predestined everything.

Copied obviously: (from https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...tination_p.pdf)

Foreordination is explicitly stated in Scripture.

Acts 4:27, 28: For of a truth in this city against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with
the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel foreordained to come to
pass.

Ephesians 1:5: Having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself, according to the good pleasure of His
will.

Ephesians 1:11: In whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of Him who worketh all
things after the counsel of His will.

Romans 8:29, 30: For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the
firstborn among many brethren: and whom He foreordained, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and
whom He justified, them He also glorified.

1 Corinthians 2:7: But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before
the worlds unto our glory.

Acts 2:23: Him (Jesus) being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hands of lawless men did
crucify and slay.

Acts 13:48: And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life
believed.

Ephesians 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk
in them.

Romans 9:23: That He might make known the riches of His glory upon the vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory.

Psalm 139:16: Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained
for me, When as yet there was none of them.

**Colonel** · 08-31-2020, 08:04 AM

That says nothing about the predestination of all things, and you know that.

**Lcash** · 08-31-2020, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Colonel

That was before the resurrection, meaning that people weren't born again. I doubt that anyone can have an anointed ministry without the Holy Spirit. I suppose that an atheist with a lot of backing from Christians could have a ministry where people would get saved because the Word was preached in a Christian setting and so on.

Jesus was speaking in the future tense. "In that day" is a future event not one in the present. In the context of His entire speech, it was intended as the future judgment and there is no contextual meaning of this occurring prior to the resurrection.

**Colonel** · 08-31-2020, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Lcash

Jesus was speaking in the future tense. "In that day" is a future event not one in the present. In the context of His entire speech, it was intended as the future judgment and there is no contextual meaning of this occurring prior to the resurrection.

Even if we include everyone who reads the text rather than those whom he is talking to, it still doesn't mean that people can presently work miracles in Jesus' name without being born again. These people may have shipwrecked their faith later on while thinking to themselves that they are good enough on account of the miracles that they worked previously.

Why were the seven sons of Scheva unable to cast out demons ? The demons told them why, they knew about Jesus and they knew about Paul but they didn't know the sons of Scheva because they weren't born again, they had no authority to use Jesus' name.

**Smitty** · 08-31-2020, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

Smitty, I'm trying to get someone to show me where the Bible says that God, not knowing the future, has to look into the future to see what will happen. No luck yet though. Can you help?

Some of us have heard someone say or we have read somewhere that God predestines some to be saved, and He does this by looking into the future and seeing who will believe in Christ and who will not. If he sees that a person is going to come to saving faith, then He will predestine that person to be saved, based on foreknowledge of that persons faith.
If He sees that a person will not come to saving faith, then He does not predestine that person to be saved. But this system of belief offers no real freedom of an act of the human will to choose.
For instance, If God looks into the future and sees that person A (Bonhoeffer) will come to faith in Christ, and person B (Hitler) will not come to faith in Christ, then those facts are already fixed, they are already determined. If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true, which it is, because there are no restrictions on God's knowledge. He knows everything to be known because God is omniscient. The verse commonly used to support the view above is Romans 8:29: "For whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son." But I would argue that this verse can hardly be used to demonstrate that God based His predestination on foreknowledge of the fact that a person would believe.
Now speaking of the word "election" because predestination involves "the elect." It would be my opinion (and I might add conclusion) that election is unconditional. Therefore, I reject the idea that election is based on God's foreknowledge of our faith. I personally conclude instead that the reason for election is simply God's sovereign choice---He "destined us in love to be His sons" (Eph 1:5). God chose us simply because He decided to bestow His love upon us. It was not because of any foreseen (peeking into the future) to see our faith or merit in us. This leads me to accept "unconditional election." It is "unconditional" because it is not conditioned upon anything that God sees in us that makes us worthy of His choosing us.

Then that would lead us to ask the question is it fair for God to create some people who He knew would sin and be eternally condemned, and whom He would not redeem? Paul wrote in Romans 9:18, "So He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." If God ultimately decided to create some creatures to be saved and others not to be saved, then that was His sovereign choice, and we have no moral or scriptural basis on which we can insist that it was not fair. God has His rights as the omnipotent Creator:

But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder,
"Why have you made me thus?" Has the potter have no right over the clay, to make out of
the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? What if God, desiring to
show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience the vessels
of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of
mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He has called, not from
the Jews only but from also the Gentiles (Rom 9:20-24).

Just when I think I'm going to close out this post, more thoughts start pouring through my mind.

Such as: Doesn't the Bible say that it is God's will and desire to save everyone?

I won't type out the verses for sake of time but 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 does mention this fact.

The verses simply tell us that God invites and commands every person to repent and come to Christ for salvation, but they do not tell us anything about God's secret decrees regarding who will be saved. That is to say these verses speak of God's revealed will (telling us what we should do), not His hidden will (His eternal plans for what will happen). Those whom are saved (past, present, and future) have great cause for rejoicing and praise to God, who is worthy of praise and receives all the credit for our salvation (Eph 1:3-6; 1 Pet 1:1-3). God is viewed as actively choosing us for salvation, and doing so in love and with delight. But reprobation is viewed as something that brings God sorrow, not delight (Ezek 33:11), and the blame for the condemnation of sinners is always put on the people or angels who rebel, never on God Himself (Jn 3:18-19, 5:40). If God genuinely feels sorrow at the punishment of the wicked, then why does He allow it or even decree that it will come about? Well, the grounds for those who obtain salvation (election) is God's grace, whereas the ground of reprobation (condemnation) is God's justice.

Getting back to Mr. OZ question, God knows all things past, present, and future, because He is "all knowing" (omniscient).
I don't know of a specific verse that says God has to look into the future to see what will happen.
I do know that all God would have to do is look through the pages of the Book of Life to see whose name is not written down (Rev 13:8), thus, those missing would forfeit eternal glory in the New Jerusalem.

**FunFromOz** · 08-31-2020, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Colonel

That says nothing about the predestination of all things, and you know that.

Ephesians 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk
in them.

So we are His workmanship (not a random event) and there are good works for us to do which were "afore prepared".

Your name has been written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth (Rev 17:8) because you are his workmanship created for good works previously prepared for you.

But your existence is totally dependant on the existence of your parents. And theirs on the existence of theirs. And theirs on the existence of theirs. And theirs on the existence of theirs, etc. Your existence cannot be predestined without all those who went before you being predestined.

**Lcash** · 08-31-2020, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Colonel

Even if we include everyone who reads the text rather than those whom he is talking to, it still doesn't mean that people can presently work miracles in Jesus' name without being born again. These people may have shipwrecked their faith later on while thinking to themselves that they are good enough on account of the miracles that they worked previously.

Why were the seven sons of Scheva unable to cast out demons ? The demons told them why, they knew about Jesus and they knew about Paul but they didn't know the sons of Scheva because they weren't born again, they had no authority to use Jesus' name.

So are you disagreeing with Jesus' own words then? They claimed to cast out demons yet Jesus Himself said "I never knew you!" The entire episode was told in a future tense not in present tense. Not all demons are the same. You recall the disciple's discomfort that they could not cast out some demons yet Jesus did? When questioned He told them, "Some come not out but by fasting a prayer!" So, yes they could indeed have cast out demons and not be filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus own words are in agreement with this statement.

Lastly, in the book of Acts when Luke described the event with the seven sons of Scheva, was that descriptive or prescriptive? It was descriptive and was not a prescription of how things always work.

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