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Thread: Robert Young - Hints and Helps - Exodus 15:26

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    This isn't about pitting OSAS against Catholic style works salvation.
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Most people I know believe that salvation depends on and continues to depend on the presence of real faith in the risen Christ.
    As I understand.

    Just saying that that leads to thoughts I wouldn't have.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Just saying that that leads to thoughts I wouldn't have.
    You're changing the subject from God permitting things to something about Calvinism.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    You're changing the subject from God permitting things to something about Calvinism.
    Really it's about God's involvement in things is it not because the two things you mentioned are on opposite ends of the spectrum. (Or a spectrum anyway). Or at least that's my understanding of things.

    As I said "My limited understanding of this is that some folks would say that God didn't actually do all the things that the Bible says He does but just permits them to happen". A view of God as being on the outside simply letting things happen is the very opposite to the Reformed understanding of God who ordained everything.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Really it's about God's involvement in things is it not because the two things you mentioned are on opposite ends of the spectrum. (Or a spectrum anyway). Or at least that's my understanding of things.

    As I said "My limited understanding of this is that some folks would say that God didn't actually do all the things that the Bible says He does but just permits them to happen". A view of God as being on the outside simply letting things happen is the very opposite to the Reformed understanding of God who ordained everything.
    With Calvinism God doesn't permit anything, he makes sure that it all happens. Okay.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    With Calvinism God doesn't permit anything, he makes sure that it all happens. Okay.
    Which is what I said.

    Though I should qualify that.

    Yes there are certain things where God is directly involved and the related verse is a good example where we are told that God was involved and possibly would be again involved in something. This incident is to do with those He loved, the first punishing those who harm those He loves and the secondly disciplining those He loves.

    We see this all through the OT. Whenever Israel strays God punishes them, often by raising up another nation to do it, but then He punishes that nation too for what they've done. He's entitled to do that. He only ever punishes evil.

    It's not like if you shake your head, God is not there individually controlling exactly where every hair always is, which some may seem to think. But at the same time every hair is where God ordained it to be. One of those mysteries to keep us humble.
    Last edited by FunFromOz; 07-22-2020 at 06:18 AM. Reason: The Qualification.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    When reading the OT I come across passages like the one below quite frequently.

    Rev 14:19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
    20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

    Compare to :

    Isaiah 63:1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
    With dyed garments from Bozrah,
    This One who is glorious in His apparel,
    Traveling in the greatness of His strength?—
    "I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
    2 Why is Your apparel red,
    And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
    3 "I have trodden the winepress alone,
    And from the peoples no one was with Me.
    For I have trodden them in My anger,
    And trampled them in My fury;
    Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
    And I have stained all My robes
    .
    4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart,
    And the year of My redeemed has come.
    5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
    And I wondered
    That there was no one to uphold;
    Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me;
    And My own fury, it sustained Me.
    6 I have trodden down the peoples in My anger,
    Made them drunk in My fury,
    And brought down their strength to the earth."

    The point is clearly to demonstrate that his judgment here is not merely permissive.

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  8. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The point is clearly to demonstrate that his judgment here is not merely permissive.
    Reading Joel and 2:28 says,

    "It will come about after this
    That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
    And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    Your old men will dream dreams,
    Your young men will see visions." which people like and quote and get excited about.

    but just before that in 2:25 we read,

    "Then I will make up to you for the years
    That the swarming locust has eaten,
    The creeping locust, the stripping locust and the gnawing locust,
    My great army which I sent among you.

    We can't have it both ways.

    Someone who only does good but allows others to do bad for them reminds me of movie gangsters. The want to appear good in the eyes of those who know them so they send others to do their dirty work thinking it keeps their hands clean. In reality it just shows how evil they really are.

  9. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    This is theology, not a chess match. The point is to establish that the permissive sense is a valid view in the eyes of some noted bible scholars, and that people who dismiss the permissive sense as poor scholarship have to concede that.
    I did a Google on "permissive sense" and eventually found "Mistaken Idea of Permissive/Causative Hebrew Meanings" (Research Prepared by Dr. Don G. Pickney – © 2018) of Yeshua Israel PO Box 535784 Grand Prairie, TX 75053-5784.

    In it we read (emphasis mine)
    I've often heard people try to wrap their mind around a tragedy in modern times or in the Bible by evoking what is known as the Hebrew "permissive" or "causative tense." The idea behind this tense is simply that God does not cause bad things to happen because He is inherently good. Instead, He simply takes a figurative step back and allows them to happen.

    It's a nice concept that helps us embrace a perfect God who does no wrong; however, the concept is not an accurate one. The permissive or causative tense simply does not exist in Hebrew. Hebrew has only four tenses: past, present, future and command. For example, for the verb "open:" "I opened the door," "I am opening the door," "I will open the door," and "Open the door!" There is no tense that states, "I will allow the door to be opened." I'm not sure where this mythical tense originated, but I can see why it is widely embraced. Of course, we know there is an evil force who is actively involved in trying to kill, steal and destroy.

    It's a sobering thing to accept that God is perfect and good, yet declares Himself actively involved in blessing and cursing and in giving life and in taking it away. When God is involved in events we consider tragic, it is ultimately an act of justice, and sometimes even mercy. Of course, by no means does everything bad that happens comes directly from the hand of God. I am only making the point that God can be involved in making seemingly bad things happen.
    With respect to the verse mentioned in the OP, (warning, there's one "french" word in the quote) and (emphasis mine)
    Some ... got the ball rolling with this theory that the Hebrew says God will only allow the diseases to come upon us and as this teaching passed from teacher to teacher it went through an evolutionary process. Soon teachers began to impress their audiences by throwing out Hebrew terms and of course if you don't know Hebrew and the old boy has a platform he must be a Hebrew expert and you can't argue against that. What they started to say was that in the Hebrew this is in a permissive tense. Say what? There is no such thing as a permissive tense in Hebrew.

    Eventually, these teachers started creating their own Hebrew grammar and taught that the verb put was in a permissive tense rather than a causative tense but since there was no way to express the permissive tense in English translators put it in the causative tense. Huh? As their authority they threw out the name of a Hebrew scholar, Dr. Robert Young. When I heard that I began to understand how they came up with this teaching that has a higher crap content than fertilizer. I made a study of Dr. Young's work while doing my doctoral dissertation. He is indeed a distinguished Hebrew scholar.

    Dr. Robert Young did a controversial work on the use of the Jussive form in the Hebrew. Unfortunately, his conclusion was picked up by teachers who had no background in the study of Biblical Hebrew but did have a large audience and they applied his theory to Exodus 15:26 which became a sensational hit among faith healers and the Word Faith movement. This misunderstanding got passed on from one faith healer to another who did not check their sources and it eventually evolved to a teaching of a permissive tense and actually began to take on the form of some sort of conspiracy by Bible translators to cover up God's true intentions with regard to healing.
    There will always be a variety of opinions, but I like the statement "Eventually, these teachers started creating their own Hebrew grammar and taught that the verb put was in a permissive tense rather than a causative tense but since there was no way to express the permissive tense in English translators put it in the causative tense. Huh?"

  10. #19
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    According to my Blue Letter Bible app, Hebrew verbs do have active and passive voices. That I could find, the passive voice isn't used frequently in passages that mention God's judgments, as in "I let such and such happen".

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