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Thread: Does God Predestine Everything?

  1. #41
    Getting back to:
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Please quote a verse that says, beyond speculation, that regeneration precedes faith.
    As I said before there's no such thing and you know that.

    But when looking for a short video on the reality of the existence of both Predetermination and Free Will (I could only find a 55 min one) I found this 4 min 44 sec one:


  2. #42
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    He's pretending that non-Calvinists believe that people can come to faith without being convicted and drawn by the Holy Spirit first. Then he pits his Calvinist "being born again precedes coming to faith" formula in a logical argument against this strawman. While the Bible itself declares that prevenient grace precedes faith precedes being born again, with clarity several times. For instance in John 12:36, as quoted a few times previously.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    While the Bible itself declares that prevenient grace precedes faith precedes being born again, with clarity several times. For instance in John 12:36, as quoted a few times previously.
    Can you clarify how John 12:27-36 shows prevenient grace please, because I can't see it.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Can you clarify how John 12:27-36 shows prevenient grace please, because I can't see it.
    Here :

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    John 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.

    While you have the light
    believe in the light
    that you may become sons of light

    illumination precedes faith precedes regeneration

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Here :
    Jesus Foretells His Death

    27 "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again." 29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him." 30 Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?" 35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light."

    That doesn't really work does it?

    v36 is the second half of a statement (v35 and v36) made by Jesus in answer to a question. And this is part of the paragraph from v27 to v 36.

    Surely v36 refers back to v35 where Jesus identifies Himself as the Light? In John 8:12 He said of Himself "I am the Light of the world".

  6. #46
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Of course. And when Jesus departed from the Earth he sent the Holy Spirit in his stead to illuminate, convict and draw men. Previously he had done so directly himself, aided by the power of the Holy Spirit who was upon him.

    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
    8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
    10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
    11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

    As the Bible says, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus.

    Phil 1:19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ

    So while Jesus is no longer present here bodily, he is present here through the presence of his Spirit.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Of course. And when Jesus departed from the Earth he sent the Holy Spirit in his stead to illuminate, convict and draw men. Previously he had done so directly himself, aided by the power of the Holy Spirit who was upon him.
    Then was Jesus wrong when he said in John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day"? Jesus said that the Father draws us.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Arminians don't believe that people come to faith without the Holy Spirit acting upon them first. Noone here believes that either. John 12:36 does discuss the need for divine influence for someone to come to faith ("while you have light") but other verses discuss the order of faith and regeneration without mentioning prevenient grace directly, it's merely implicit.

    John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

    believe and receive
    precedes
    becoming a child of God

    John already discussed Jesus being the light of the world in verse 9, so God acting on men directly through Jesus or through his Spirit is implicit.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Then was Jesus wrong when he said in John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day"? Jesus said that the Father draws us.
    The Father draws us by his Spirit.

    John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    He's pretending that non-Calvinists believe that people can come to faith without being convicted and drawn by the Holy Spirit first.
    I'll have to re-check for that.

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