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Thread: What matters most?

  1. #1
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    What matters most?

    This has been discussed in one form or another since Covid-19 became a household word.

    I am going to formulate thoughts as I type.

    What matters most?

    1. Have any of you heard a pastor state "The Holy Spirit instructed me to keep holding the gatherings"? I have not...nor have I heard them say "The Holy Spirit told me to cease and obey the law of the land". Now we know all the 'debates' about responsibility to the weak or the foolish need to be protected from themselves. (seems all arguments rest in one or the other of these two) but where is the concern that we are bowing to human reasoning and not the Spirit?

    2. What did the three Hebrew children say? Let us eat what we are supposed to eat and the consequences will be on us. So what are we really saying when we ceased being ASKED to close and were ordered to not gather? The world said, they are too stupid to protect themselves...but what else? Did we convey the belief that we value our own life more than we value the instructions of scripture?

    3. Why does the instruction to obey the law of the land supersede the instruction to forsake not the assembling? Since when does one trump the other? Did God say we had to choose between the two? No....man did.

    Now what I am NOT saying...that we should toss the hygiene and practical needs of safety? no...so we should wear our helmet or fasten our seat belt because God did not tell us NOT to...but to say forsaking our gatherings is the same thing is a stretch because scripture DOES tell us not to.....ESPECIALLY as we see 'that day' approaching.

    So what matters most? Obeying man or God or man?

    One other key factor is God's instructions have always been encapsulated in free will and relationship. Man's are encapsulated in threats and penalties and peer pressure. So where the line in the sand was drawn was in mandating closure...mandating no gatherings rather than stating clear guidelines for gathering and letting the people choose.

    Large churches could have found solutions....The mandate could have simply told lard churches to find solutions that fit the safety guidelines ....

    What matters most...if we value our own life more than scriptural instructions AND the leading of the Holy Spirit our values are clearly misplaced...we must value obedience to the Holy Spirit and desire HIS leading over human reasoning.

    NO I did not say that! point....Refer to #1. All I have heard in discussions are scriptural debates of which scriptures supersede the instruction to not forsake the gathering....and the few who hold that dear and close are ridiculed and shamed and accused of murder or endangering others....I am truly sad that so many would be happy to see pastors or congregants arrested...even professing Christians....the church is truly cold...

    I truly believe some people, even professing Christians, held a cynical pleasure when the Bishop died...why? It affirmed their POV in their mind.....But might I suggest this man very well may have entered Heaven with Jesus saying 'WELL DONE! You set the example of fearless obedience to My call and leading!'

  2. #2
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    I am taking more of a neutral position on this topic.

    Quest
    How do respond to believers that say...Doesn't some of these ministers who died mean they acted in presumption not faith since they were not protected but only assumed protection by God.

  3. #3
    For me here in Switzerland as also in Albania it seems to be much easier. The gouvernment is not telling me to do something that goes against Gods word, nor keeps me from loving God and those nearest to me. So there is no conflict.
    I am having prayer meetings on teams, watching podcasts etc.
    As a nurse I never have belonged to the people who can go to church every sunday, it does not separate me from God or other believers, I just have to find different ways.

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  5. #4
    So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John's Avatar
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    I think it depends on how you define "gathering of the brethren". I don't see anything out there that would prevent that.

    If traditional once weekly meetings or services with choir, guest speakers, etc is how you define "gathering" I see where an argument could be made that those have been inhibited.

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    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I am taking more of a neutral position on this topic.

    Quest
    How do respond to believers that say...Doesn't some of these ministers who died mean they acted in presumption not faith since they were not protected but only assumed protection by God.
    Everybody needs to read Fred Price's "Faith, Foolishness, or Presumption?" When I went to Rhema the first week in one class was Fred teaching this from a live seminar he had done there a year or two before to keep people from doing flaky stuff in the name of 'being in faith'.

    Now the continuing to hold meetings isn't 'flaky'. But if you think you're automatically protected just because you make a step like that, you're not. It's like thinking you're in faith just because you don't take medicine. You may be or you may not be. And you can take medicine and be in faith.

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  8. #6
    So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John's Avatar
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    I believe that the "mega" era is over. It served its purpose but became self serving and self perpetuating at the expense of daily sacrifice vs. a weekly nod to to our faith.

    Have you considered that as part of "what the devil meant for harm, God uses for good" might just be smaller, higher impact "gatherings"?

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  10. #7
    So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Everybody needs to read Fred Price's "Faith, Foolishness, or Presumption?" When I went to Rhema the first week in one class was Fred teaching this from a live seminar he had done there a year or two before to keep people from doing flaky stuff in the name of 'being in faith'.

    Now the continuing to hold meetings isn't 'flaky'. But if you think you're automatically protected just because you make a step like that, you're not. It's like thinking you're in faith just because you don't take medicine. You may be or you may not be. And you can take medicine and be in faith.
    Yes. Apparently he experienced quite a few deaths in his congregation due to people running too far with his message, folks were throwing away their meds, acting foolishly.

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  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    I truly believe some people, even professing Christians, held a cynical pleasure when the Bishop died...why? It affirmed their POV in their mind.....But might I suggest this man very well may have entered Heaven with Jesus saying 'WELL DONE! You set the example of fearless obedience to My call and leading!'
    Well, that last part is really sad if true, I hope it's not. (I mean the part about people taking
    pleasure in seeing the Bishop pass away.)

    I do believe that church services could be held with modifications: preferably outdoors
    with chairs spaced 6 feet apart.

    We're doing online services, and while it's great to see the faces of your church-mates,
    it's not nearly the same as seeing them in person. (We do a lot of hugging and
    hand-shaking, so that would probably have to be omitted.)

    One thing to recognize: If you do get sick, it's not just yourself who is affected, it's
    the doctor and nurse who treat you, and the family members who live with you.

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