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Thread: Sound and/or False teachers.

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    Calvin himself said that God is the "author of evil." Just sayin'.
    (This is an aside Jonathan and not a statement for or against what you're saying)

    And the Bible says over a dozen times "there is no God". Just sayin' ("Proof")

    The statement about Calvin may be true, but then the statement 'Calvin himself said that God is "not the author of evil"' would be equally true. (Well I found both these statements attributed to Calvin in a post on the topic).

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Calvin isn't 100% wrong in his statements as there is truth mixed in with his opinions about sovereignty
    (won't go there)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    There are plenty of learned scholars who can easily see a different viewpoint of the scriptures Calvin uses to justify his beliefs
    Obviously

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    But why should the whole church embrace what Calvin says ...it is still his opinion - the church is allowed to see God's sovereignty differently to Calvin
    We can see it differently to the extent that Calvin is non-Biblical, yes. But rather than being allowed to see it differently isn't the Church REQUIRED to see God as He truly is, and therefore see God's sovereignty as it truly is, and I would suggest, defining our theology, not being a result of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    The error with Calvinism is that his followers are so entrenched with Calvin's belief system that they elevate his opinion of scripture to the same level as scripture
    They may deny this but in writing, speech and practise this is always conveyed
    It may seem like that TT. People of reformed persuasion, such as those that put together the WCF (from which I quoted the statement "God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;") 80 years after Calvin's death do believe (as Augustine and Calvin did) that God is sovereign in salvation as opposed to people such as yourself who see human will as the decisive factor. But would it to be valid to make an equally general statement and say you're "so entrenched with Pelagius' belief system that you elevate his opinion of scripture to the same level as scripture" simply because of your beliefs re your free will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    That is why I called it a idol - it is vigorously defended as if Calvin wrote holy Scripture
    And some defend free will as if Pelagius wrote holy Scripture.

    Actually TT statements like that one there are pretty weak aren't they. It is pretending to say a lot, but I haven't the faintest idea what Pelagius wrote about free will. But it's the way we often "discuss" things isn't it?

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    What do you see as the problem with that statement Jonathan?
    It provides fertile ground for an overemphasized theological determinism.

  4. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    It provides fertile ground for an overemphasized theological determinism.
    Doesn't that simply boil down to the question "Before, and when, creating the universe, did God know what He was creating?"

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Doesn't that simply boil down to the question "Before, and when, creating the universe, did God know what He was creating?"
    Calvinists and Open Theists claim that foreknowledge necessitates causation but that is not the case. Calvinists typically claim that God cannot create something whose actions aren't predetermined by how God created it and that isn't the case either.

    God has created free will
    God does possess foreknowledge of all events
    God did not predestine every event

  6. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Calvinists and Open Theists claim that foreknowledge necessitates causation but that is not the case. Calvinists typically claim that God cannot create something whose actions aren't predetermined by how God created it and that isn't the case either.

    God has created free will
    God does possess foreknowledge of all events
    God did not predestine every event
    Which in part is why I asked Forseen as opposed to Forordained. How do you handle what this appears to say of God.

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