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Thread: Wrath Has Gone Out from God's Presence

  1. #11
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    CatchyUsername tried to explain it away by claiming that all of them were evil giants. Every last person in the land of Canaan. Which creates similar problems.

    But to address Victoryword's version of this :

    The thought that God would tell the Israelites that he is allowing Satan to motion them to kill every last person in a city is, well, to say the least, quite oblique.
    There isn't any scripture to say giants lived in Jericho and we know Rahab and her family ended up as Israelites so they looked like normal humans.

    Do you have a quote of VW saying that 'God is allowing satan to motion Israelites to kill people in the promised land'
    or if VW is reading can he comment if that is what he believes

  2. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    There isn't any scripture to say giants lived in Jericho and we know Rahab and her family ended up as Israelites so they looked like normal humans.
    Yeah and Solomon married a bunch of Canaanite women towards the end of his life. The royal marriage business was basically a beauty contest.

    Do you have a quote of VW saying that 'God is allowing satan to motion Israelites to kill people in the promised land'
    or if VW is reading can he comment if that is what he believes
    No, I don't have a quote to that effect. Though I can't imagine how else that would work out given that God allegedly never actively judges anyone, I am open to considering an alternative explanation.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I just saw a facebook post by Victoryword which reads "God does not need abstract spooky foreknowledge to know the future. He simply makes up his mind to do a thing and then does it!"

    The problem is when God tells people that he is permitting Satan or enemies to do things. Since he has no foreknowledge he cannot know anything about what Satan will do unless he forces him to do so. Satan could as well make up his mind to do something else in order to not do God's bidding.

    The combination of no foreknowledge and predictive, permissive statements is absolutely impossible. It's a contradiction in terms.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    Cardinal TT (04-22-2020), curly sue (04-22-2020), FunFromOz (04-22-2020)

  5. #14
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The plague and the earthquake were clearly allowed by God but there is a more specific judgment mentioned in the same chapter, against the main antagonists :

    Num 16:19 And Korah gathered all the congregation against them at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. Then the glory of the Lord appeared to all the congregation.
    ***
    35 And a fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering incense.

    This fire came directly from the glory cloud where God was present and the judgment was therefore active and not merely permissive.
    Pondering....what we know...all of us are protected from the death pronounced on sinners by the provision of Jesus ONLY. Korah came literally into the presence of God with sin/rebellion. There was no possible intercession apparently at that point. It seems clear God restrained His holy presence to protect the guilty when there was an intercessor but there was a point of rebellion and unrepentant that God's holy presence consumed.

    I have not done a study of 'wrath' in the true Hebrew sense but it seems clear that God's holy presence can be a blessing or consuming depending on the condition of those in that presence.

    So I am not so sure this event alters VW's teaching? Seems true that the only reason most of the world's population is not consumed by God's presence is because intercessors, Jesus, and believers are restraining. But that was always true after the fall....God has clearly restrained His presence to protect mankind but only to a point.

    This fact does not alter the other reality and that is that Satan is clearly going about stealing, killing and devouring or that many things we experience are due to fallen mankind and are not the 'holy consuming presence' of God upon sinners.

  6. #15
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Reading Scripture regarding Noah and the flood...imo it is impossible that satan has that much power to cause it to rain 40 days/nights as well as the great fountains of the deep breaking up.

    satan is powerful but not that powerful...God is clearly at work in this story

    I embrace mostly 'we reap what we sow' judgments but there are specific times God exercises his sovereign judgment and the flood is one of them

    The vast majority of churches, leaders and believers saying God is directly judging I dismiss.

  7. #16
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Reading Scripture regarding Noah and the flood...imo it is impossible that satan has that much power to cause it to rain 40 days/nights as well as the great fountains of the deep breaking up.

    satan is powerful but not that powerful...God is clearly at work in this story

    I embrace mostly 'we reap what we sow' judgments but there are specific times God exercises his sovereign judgment and the flood is one of them

    The vast majority of churches, leaders and believers saying God is directly judging I dismiss.
    I agree, Satan can't do whatever he wants just because God looks the other way. At least it seems likely that Satan would have tried to flood all of humanity if given the chance. It seems much more likely that he would have skipped some of the other very specific judgments that God "told" him to go ahead and do.

    There is also the question of how Satan himself is going to be judged in the end. By having him torment himself ? That would be an act of masochism, not judgment.

  8. #17
    A site I follow suggested this book (amongst others) as good lock down reading

    Wilson, Jared, The Gospel According to Satan. Nelson, 2020.

    In this easily accessible volume the American pastoral ministry professor looks at "eight lies about God that sound like the truth." These include: God wants us to be happy; the cross is not about wrath; (emphasis mine) your feelings are reality; God helps those who help themselves; and your life is what you make it. These false and damaging beliefs are not only found in secular culture, but in far too many churches. Wilson capably demolishes these myths and points us back to the real gospel of the real God in the real Bible.

    Is it relevant to this discussion? It's available on Kindle
    Amazon.com: The Gospel According to Satan: Eight Lies about God that Sound Like the Truth (9781400212040): Jared C. Wilson: Books

  9. #18
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    A site I follow suggested this book (amongst others) as good lock down reading

    Wilson, Jared, The Gospel According to Satan. Nelson, 2020.

    In this easily accessible volume the American pastoral ministry professor looks at "eight lies about God that sound like the truth." These include: God wants us to be happy; the cross is not about wrath; (emphasis mine) your feelings are reality; God helps those who help themselves; and your life is what you make it. These false and damaging beliefs are not only found in secular culture, but in far too many churches. Wilson capably demolishes these myths and points us back to the real gospel of the real God in the real Bible.

    Is it relevant to this discussion? It's available on Kindle
    Amazon.com: The Gospel According to Satan: Eight Lies about God that Sound Like the Truth (9781400212040): Jared C. Wilson: Books
    FFO, it's tempting to comment on a few of the above points but it would change the subject of this thread to ridiculous degree.

  10. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    FFO, it's tempting to comment on a few of the above points but it would change the subject of this thread to ridiculous degree.
    Well we don't want to do

    lest someone say

    do we. So spoken well.

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