Thread: Jesus born again?

Originally Posted by fuego

I don't see it that way because apparently Jesus only needed to taste of death, not literally suffer the entire punishment we would have.

Yes, it was a substitute but not a straightforward one.

Originally Posted by Jew and Greek

Maybe we're approaching this topic the wrong way. It seems that people are hung up on the semantics of "born again". Just leaving that verbiage out of the discussion, was Jesus separated from The Father only on the cross, or did it carry over into the time that He was physically dead? What does it mean that He was made to be sin? What is meant by "Jesus took upon Himself the nature of Satan?" What do people mean when they say that Jesus experienced spiritual death? How relevant to our relationship with God is what happened between the crucifixion and the resurrection?

Did the Father show up to comfort Jesus in Hades ? Nope. He only showed up three days later when he resurrected him. Until then the pains of death held him (Acts 2:24).

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

That means he was put into the lake of fire not by satan but by God the Father

Did he also stand before God the Father and be pronounced cursed and cast into the lake - because that is also part of the judgement and would be man's horrific fear to experience

Noone is cast into the lake of fire by Satan, that is unscriptural. Satan himself is cast into the lake of fire in the end. There is nothing that suggests that the lake of fire exists until from doomsday and on. And it certainly isn't found in Hades, to the contrary Hades itself is cast into the lake of fire in the end.

Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
***
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

However, if the lake of fire represents God's wrath in manifested form then it's clear that Jesus experienced God's wrath over sin which makes that functionally equivalent.

I don't understand why people get so emotional about God making Jesus suffer rather than just permitting others to do so. God's wrath isn't merely permissive, it is also active. If not then Satan couldn't ever be judged. Jesus was our substitute and though it was a matter of obedience to the Father it was also by his own choice.

Heb 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

Originally Posted by fuego

Definitely. Not sure why people are so offended by it as if it diminishes Him in some way to actually be a complete substitute for us. I don't get it.

JDSers went too far, heresy hunters got something to work with, the big divide was created. Before that happened, people like Calvin and Billy Graham wrote and preached about Jesus going to hell without thinking about the great contention that it would later bring.

This is one of Satan's tactics : Take a truth then pervert it then watch as some people cling to the perverted version of the truth and some people reject the truth itself alltogether. Satan-Christians 2-0

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

But think about the process of being born again. We are buried with Christ in baptism. Our old man is buried and we are raised up a brand new creation. Our old nature is put away and we are given the nature of Christ. Jesus was the Christ. He was born with His own nature as an infant. Why would He need to bury his old nature and receive the nature of Christ when He already had it??? It was because of His nature that He was able to live as a Man without sinning.

Also, it was not possible for anyone to be born again until Jesus ascended and sent down the Promise of the Father. The express Agent of the "new birth" is the Holy Spirit. Being born again is a supernatural experience.

The only thing that I can think of that resembles the notion of Jesus being born again is this verse :

John 12:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.

What do you think ?

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

Looking at the context of that passage I think it was just Jesus letting them know what was about to happen. He was going to be buried and as a result the church would be born.

When looking at all that is said about the new birth in the Word, Jesus is the one who made it possible for us to be born again. He had no need to die to His old nature and be made new. We absolutely do. And that is what He was trying to tell Nicodemus.

A grain that is lain in the ground doesn't pop up again, it remains. That's the clue. The resurrected Jesus was one of the grains that were produced. That doesn't mean that the grain in the ground was sinful or inferior or anything like that, just that Jesus resurrected in a slightly different form, a form he did not and could not have until he had actually conquered both sin and then death itself. He was found without sin in his walk though he had faced all temptation and then death could not hold him because it had nothing in him, therefore God resurrected him from the dead again, into newness of life.

Originally Posted by Colonel

A grain that is lain in the ground doesn't pop up again, it remains. That's the clue. The resurrected Jesus was one of the grains that were produced. That doesn't mean that the grain in the ground was sinful or inferior or anything like that, just that Jesus resurrected in a slightly different form, a form he did not and could not have until he had actually conquered both sin and then death itself. He was found without sin in his walk though he had faced all temptation and then death could not hold him because it had nothing in him, therefore God resurrected him from the dead again, into newness of life.

That explains the phrase 'first begotten from the dead' which is a different Greek word to born again