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Thread: Jesus born again?

  1. #51
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    That's my problem with people interpreting 'it is finished' meaning redemption because it wasn't finished yet. It was not complete until he was raised from the dead and put his blood on the heavenly mercy seat. So what did happen when he was in the 'heart of the earth'? Just read Jonah's prophecy. It is a prophecy of Jesus in torment in hell IMO. Pretty obvious to me. Belly of the whale/heart of the earth, Jesus used those as synonymous terms. That isn't describing the cross.
    Jesus priority during His 3 & 1/2 years of ministry during the latter part of His life was centered on doing His Father's work.

    Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work (John 3:34).

    The Lord's prayer as recorded in John 17, specifically in verse 4, that He had finished the work, which was in reference to His work during the ministry years in fulfilling His Father's will, or work during that time span.

    So, I agree with Fuego that the redemptive purpose of Calvary was not finished at the crucifixion, but Jesus was stating that He had finished the work that the Father had sent Him to complete during His ministry years.

    I think it was Colonel that mentioned Hebrews 2:9 which states:

    But we do see Him who has been made a little while lower than the angels,
    namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor,
    that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

    Jesus mentioned to the 12 that the purpose of His death was to "give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45).

    This essentially means His death was to pay the price to free the lives of others.

    Romans 6:23 says that the "wages of sin is death." This is in fact not only relating to a physical death, but spiritual death as a final outcome. But Jesus paid the ransom satisfying the wrath of God for the penalty of sin that has beset the entire human race from its inception in the garden.

    That still leads to the question when exactly was the ransom paid or fully completed? On the cross alone? Or a combination of both, on the cross and in hades.

    Getting back to Hebrews 2:9 says, "He is crowned with glory and honor." His exaltation is a result of His suffering and death; the cross led to the crown.

    God's gracious purpose in it all was that Christ might taste death for everyone. The Savior died as our Representative and as our Substitute. The main controversy involves was only a physical death upon the cross enough to satisfy the divine claims of justice. Jesus died as a man (sinless) and He died for man. The majority of theology says the Lord bore in His body on the cross all God's judgement against sin so that those who believe on Him will never have to bear it (condemnation).

    The argument still in effect is did Jesus taste death for everyone on the cross alone (physical) or did the ramifications of taking on the penalty of the human race sin also affect Jesus spirit after He descended into hades? Apparently it did because Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 3:16 that Jesus was justified in Spirit before He was taken up in glory. Justify means to declare righteous, to declare to be in the right, to vindicate. Jesus was totally righteous, without sin, and blameless in spite of the Pharisee's accusations. But Paul makes the claim that Jesus was justified in Spirit after the cross and after the resurrection. The awful penalty of taking on the entire human race sin affected Jesus entire being, spirit, soul and body. Was He born-again? I can honestly say I really don't have a clue. But when Jesus was raised from the dead, He was raised in a glorified body that had never existed before. He is indeed the first born from the dead and we shall be like Him because we shall see Him just as He is (1 John 3:2).
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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  3. #52
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    The argument still in effect is did Jesus taste death for everyone on the cross alone (physical) or did the ramifications of taking on the penalty of the human race sin also affect Jesus spirit after He descended into hades? Apparently it did because Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 3:16 that Jesus was justified in Spirit before He was taken up in glory.
    If everything had been finished when he uttered those words "it is finished" then he could immediately have called down 72,000 angels who would have healed him from all his wounds then conquered his captors for him, leaving him to escape unharmed.

    Mat 26:53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
    54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"

    Instead he had to give up his spirit, die physically then stay three days in Hades while waiting in faith for God to rescue him by resurrecting him.

    The number of days wasn't determined by chance and they aren't merely there in order to fulfill the prophecies. If one day had been sufficient or ten days had been required then the prophecies would have concurred with what had to happen. It didn't take him three days to preach to the OT saints in the bosom of Abraham but it took him three days to conquer death until it could no longer hold him and then God resurrected him. It may imply dying to death or it may imply that his faith for his resurrection needed to be perfected during those three days, or perhaps both. It was at any rate a process and it took as long as it took. God wasn't there cheering him or comforting him and he had no power to resurrect himself. Nothing other than his faith in God's faithfulness was there to aid him.

    But could it be that all the mentioned things were merely necessities in relation to his resurrection and that the price he needed to pay specifically for atoning for sin was completed when he said "it is finished" ?

    It cannot mean that for the simple reason that Hebrews 2:9 says that he "tasted death for everyone". That cannot refer to the moment of his physical death nor to the process of his dying physically because we all die physically. Nor can it imply that he tasted death for us merely while he was still alive. It has to mean that he tasted death for us while he was actually dead. Because that is precisely what we actually escape by letting him taste it in our stead, when we receive salvation and are born again.

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  5. #53
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    And in all actuality Colonel, the Jesus follower never really dies although his body dies. Because of the Lord's completed mission upon earth (the plan of redemption) the born again Christian in a split second goes immediately into the presence of the Lord at the moment he or she exits this body of death. It works the same way for the unredeemed too. But the opposite place of heaven is h_ _ _.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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  7. #54
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    And in all actuality Colonel, the Jesus follower never really dies although his body dies. Because of the Lord's completed mission upon earth (the plan of redemption) the born again Christian in a split second goes immediately into the presence of the Lord at the moment he or she exits this body of death. It works the same way for the unredeemed too. But the opposite place of heaven is h_ _ _.
    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    There's a lot that's said in the above passage about Jesus' death (which is not the same as his resurrection) and how we are united with him in his death, none of which has anything to do with physical death. The part around verses 9-10 is interesting :

    9b Death no longer has dominion over Him.
    10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God

    Death no longer has dominion over him - not merely because he was resurrected from the dead in glorious form - but as verse 10 says "for the death that He died, He died to sin once for all"

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  9. #55
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I think the main problem with JDS the way that it has been taught by some is that it presents Jesus as having been defeated by the devil at some point before the Father stepped in and changed things around. Kenneth Copeland went as far as declaring that outright, that Jesus was defeated by Satan and became a worm in hell. Nothing could be further from the truth. Literally.

    The tendency to maximize Jesus' sufferings may be the original cause of the mentioned error. First there is how physical and graphic Jesus' sufferings in Hades are depicted, as if Hades is a physical reality comparable to our world just that there are no rules and anything is possible there. Copeland added some inventions of his own to Jesus' sufferings here on Earth too, for instance he claimed that Jesus was raped by Roman soldiers, something there is no indication of in the Bible and doing that to a prisoner was strictly forbidden for Roman soldiers. Jesus didn't suffer as much as he possibly could in the flesh, among other things they didn't break any of his bones and for a crucified person he died quite early.

    What matters more to the resulting error is when they have Jesus identify with our defeat to death, to sin and to the devil. Some like Benny Hinn have (in his case in the past) interpreted "Jesus was made sin" to mean that he experienced the act of committing all sins, probably including the emotions of enjoying all of it too. Copeland's rendition of Jesus as "a worm in hell" isn't as direct but sounds similar. Some of it comes close to blasphemy in the sense that it comes very close to depicting Jesus as an outright sinner, a temporarily defeated former servant of God, for the time being a slave to sin and to the devil. As if he had to experience that too in order to maximize his sufferings and his identification with us. Which is a complete misunderstanding.

    To the contrary the Bible declares that Jesus died to sin, he died to the world and death could not hold him and therefore God resurrected him and declared him justified because he had completed his test and had remained faithful. The pressure on him was overwhelming and the devil probably could not believe his eyes when Jesus never succumbed to it.

    In dying to sin and to this world we parttake in his victory over those things and receive his resurrection life which is immune to those things. His death and his resurrection are connected, Jesus wasn't resurrected after or "in spite of" first experiencing defeat as Copeland once taught.

  10. #56
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    What is Copeland's exact quote? You can't just lay that out there without saying exactly what he said and in contacts.

    In Psalm 22 which is a prophecy he said 'I am a worm'. I'll give Copeland the benefit of the doubt and say that's what he was referring to. Even if not, why is that so far-fetched? I don't have a problem with the statement at all because I understand the depths Jesus went to to redeem us. And I'm sure Copeland didn't mean a literal worm any more than the Psalmist meant a literal worm. There is too much hyperbole in the overreaction to this subject. People can't just seem to discuss it calmly that don't agree with it. Not saying you are overreacting, just making a statement in general based off of your post.

  11. #57
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    What is Copeland's exact quote? You can't just lay that out there without saying exactly what he said and in contacts.

    In Psalm 22 which is a prophecy he said 'I am a worm'. I'll give Copeland the benefit of the doubt and say that's what he was referring to. Even if not, why is that so far-fetched? I don't have a problem with the statement at all because I understand the depths Jesus went to to redeem us. And I'm sure Copeland didn't mean a literal worm any more than the Psalmist meant a literal worm. There is too much hyperbole in the overreaction to this subject. People can't just seem to discuss it calmly that don't agree with it. Not saying you are overreacting, just making a statement in general based off of your post.
    I'll see what I can find, I saw those quotes for the first time maybe 20 years ago.

    The Heretical Jesus Died Spiritually/Born-Again Jesus Doctrine of Word Faith | The Puritan Board

    "Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross."(Ken Copeland, "Kenneth Copeland Reference Bible 1991, page 129. Hank Hanegraaff, "Christianity in Crisis" page 338.)

    I couldn't find the "worm in hell" quote. The verse you mention is from Psalm 22 :

    Psalm 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man;
    A reproach of men, and despised by the people
    7a All those who see Me ridicule Me;

    Which takes place on the cross (see verse 16), not in Hades. It doesn't describe his inner state but rather what he looks like and how the people looking at him feel about him.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I found some more quotes here, the "wormy spirit" quote is from 1991 :

    Joseph Smith and Word of Faith Movement - Google Boker

    Notice that Copeland does point out that Jesus didn't actually commit sin.

  14. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post

    Notice that Copeland does point out that Jesus didn't actually commit sin.
    And this is the part that KCs critics leave out, in ignorance.

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