Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 42

Thread: Sinner's Prayer- A good word

  1. #11
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan
    Posts
    3,970
    Thanked: 2924
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    In all of the book of Romans, which discusses salvation thoroughly, baptism is mentioned in only two verses, Romans 6:3-4.

    There is no mention of baptism in the verse from Luke 24 that you underlined, you're simply reading that into the verse :

    Luke 24:47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem

    "remission"
    Strong's 859
    aphesis
    Definition
    * release from bondage or imprisonment
    * forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
    King James Word Usage - Total: 17
    remission 9, forgiveness 6, deliverance 1, liberty 1
    You are absolutely correct brother, Luke 24 does not say anything about baptism. But we both know that there is much more evidence to be considered. Firstly, we must examine the other accounts of the great commission. Next, we must see how the apostles and disciples responded to Jesus' commands in the great commission.

    Peter: "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins--and then they baptized thousands.
    Peter: "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

    Philip: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

    And the most powerful evidence that the preaching of Jesus included water baptism- Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"

    Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."

    And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

    So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.


    Paul: Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

    When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all.


    And you are taking 1 Corinthians 1:17 out of context. What was Paul actually trying to convey to the church at Corinth?

    Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

    14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

    In context he is saying that he didn't come to baptize people into Paul. "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel". Scripture shows that baptism is an integral part of the gospel that Paul was sent to preach.

    Please look at Paul's trip to Corinth in Acts 18: And he departed from there and entered the house of a certain man named Justus, one who worshiped God, whose house was next door to the synagogue. Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.


    Look at Paul's own testimony of being saved: "Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, came to me; and he stood and said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him. Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

    In Romans chapter 6 Paul said: "Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

    Brother, what you have called "extreme emphasis on baptism in water" is simply a part of the gospel message. It cannot be separated from the gospel. And yet, much of the church has done exactly that. They treat water baptism as an unimportant after thought. They say "It is just an outward sign of an inward exchange." They say that it is for a witness for the bystanders. The Ethiopian had no bystanders. He simply heard the gospel and responded by asking what was keeping him from being baptized.

    The weight of scripture overwhelmingly says that water baptism is an essential part of the gospel. Those are not my thoughts, nor are they Torben's thoughts. They are the very Word of God.

    Faith without action is like the body without the spirit. DEAD. - James



  2. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    I wish that every new believer would get baptized in water and preferably sooner than later. That's not the point.

    In Acts 10 the Gentiles believed and were baptized in the Holy Spirit and therefore born again before they were baptized in water. There's not even a mention of their confessing Jesus with their mouthes like Romans 10:9-10 prescribes. Faith in Jesus is and will always remain the essense of the gospel, that which cannot be reduced and which must be present for salvation to occur.

    Even Torben Søndergaard accepts that people can get saved without being baptized in water first or simultaneously. But he will tell you that grudgingly and in two sentences somewhere within a ten hour seminar. Not because he wants to but because people have badgered him with questions about it.

    An other result of the political over emphasis on details just to overwhelm people into believing the same is that it produces followers that don't get what I said about Søndergaard in the paragraph above. Instead they turn into actual baptismal regenerationalists and so on because that is what they are actually taught and they never noticed the tiny disclaimers. Sometimes this is precisely how heresies (like baptismal regeneration) establish themselves, over time.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan
    Posts
    3,970
    Thanked: 2924
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I wish that every new believer would get baptized in water and preferably sooner than later. That's not the point.

    In Acts 10 the Gentiles believed and were baptized in the Holy Spirit and therefore born again before they were baptized in water. There's not even a mention of their confessing Jesus with their mouthes like Romans 10:9-10 prescribes. Faith in Jesus is and will always remain the essense of the gospel, that which cannot be reduced and which must be present for salvation to occur.

    Even Torben Søndergaard accepts that people can get saved without being baptized in water first or simultaneously. But he will tell you that grudgingly and in two sentences somewhere within a ten hour seminar. Not because he wants to but because people have badgered him with questions about it.

    An other result of the political over emphasis on details just to overwhelm people into believing the same is that it produces followers that don't get what I said about Søndergaard in the paragraph above. Instead they turn into actual baptismal regenerationalists and so on because that is what they are actually taught and they never noticed the tiny disclaimers. Sometimes this is precisely how heresies (like baptismal regeneration) establish themselves, over time.
    I agree that we must be careful not to slip over into batismal regeneration. But we cannot use that as an excuse for not teaching exactly what the Bible shows to be the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think most of the church has thrown the baby out with the bath water on this.

    Personally, I believe that water baptism is just as much of a sacrament as taking communion. We do an act in faith and the Holy Spirit meets us there and also does a work in us.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Ezekiel 33 For This Useful Post:

    Quest (03-03-2020)

  5. #14
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    I agree that we must be careful not to slip over into batismal regeneration. But we cannot use that as an excuse for not teaching exactly what the Bible shows to be the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think most of the church has thrown the baby out with the bath water on this.

    Personally, I believe that water baptism is just as much of a sacrament as taking communion. We do an act in faith and the Holy Spirit meets us there and also does a work in us.
    The gifts and the power of the Spirit are as much a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ and at least as important, even though operating in them has no bearing on one's own salvation. See my point ?

  6. #15
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan
    Posts
    3,970
    Thanked: 2924
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The gifts and the power of the Spirit are as much a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ and at least as important, even though operating in them has no bearing on one's own salvation. See my point ?
    They are important. But Jesus didn't say "He who believes and operates in Spiritual gifts shall be saved." He did say "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved." If Jacob hadn't built an altar, put Isaac on it and then raised his knife would the scriptures still credit him with believing and finding favor with God for his faith?

    So, your answer to my previous question about someone who says that they want salvation but refuses to be baptized would be?


  7. #16
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    They are important. But Jesus didn't say "He who believes and operates in Spiritual gifts shall be saved." He did say "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved." If Jacob hadn't built an altar, put Isaac on it and then raised his knife would the scriptures still credit him with believing and finding favor with God for his faith?

    So, your answer to my previous question about someone who says that they want salvation but refuses to be baptized would be?
    That you ought to find a verse that condemns those that aren't baptized in water. Your verse continues with :

    Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    There is no mention of baptism in the condemnation part of the verse, the part of the verse that you necessarily left out.

  8. #17
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    Here's a brand new two minute video on the same topic :


  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    Ezekiel 33 (02-21-2020)

  10. #18
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan
    Posts
    3,970
    Thanked: 2924
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That you ought to find a verse that condemns those that aren't baptized in water. Your verse continues with :

    Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    There is no mention of baptism in the condemnation part of the verse, the part of the verse that you necessarily left out.
    Believing is tied in with baptism. Faith is an action word. James tells us that faith without the accompanying works is dead faith. In fact, he re-emphasizes it over and over in Chapter 2 of his epistle. Philip's encounter with the Ethiopian in Acts 8 shows this perfectly. Peter's first sermon shows it perfectly. It is shown all through the book of Acts.

    Also, I am still waiting for you to answer that question brother. If someone says that they want to be saved but refuses to be baptized are they actually saved?

  11. #19
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan
    Posts
    3,970
    Thanked: 2924
    I agree with Dr. Brown. It can be used, but it is not a biblical prayer and can and has also been misused.

    I was led in a similar prayer when I got saved 20 years ago. Sadly, it was me who had to go to the pastor a few days later (after reading my bible) and tell him that I needed to be baptized. It was not included in the gospel message. In the book of Acts it was definitely included in the gospel message.

    God showed me that the church had misunderstood/neglected the importance of water baptism years before I ever heard of Torben. I shared this with the pastoral board where I used to be an associate pastor probably 10 or more years ago.

    We have a biblical model to follow. Why not just simply follow it in faith?

  12. #20
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    Believing is tied in with baptism. Faith is an action word. James tells us that faith without the accompanying works is dead faith. In fact, he re-emphasizes it over and over in Chapter 2 of his epistle. Philip's encounter with the Ethiopian in Acts 8 shows this perfectly. Peter's first sermon shows it perfectly. It is shown all through the book of Acts.

    Also, I am still waiting for you to answer that question brother. If someone says that they want to be saved but refuses to be baptized are they actually saved?
    I did answer it. You should be more careful about condemning people to eternal hell for lacking in works, that thinking leads to another heresy discussed in for instance the letter to the Galatians.

    In Romans 10:9-10 an other work accompanying faith is mentioned, that of confessing Jesus as Lord. While the lack of that "work" isn't condemned, the opposite work is :

    Mat 10:32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
    33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

    Failing to disown Jesus before men is much more fundamental than being or not being baptized in water is. It's always possible to repent from that failure of course.

    Romans 10:9-10 can be seen as a conclusion to the discourse on salvation and righteousness by faith throughout the letter to the Romans and the surrounding context is nothing but the general preaching of the gospel to those who need to hear it, Søndergaard's invention that it's to Jews who already believe is a total joke. It's as much a joke as Joseph Prince's insistence that 1 John 1 is written to Gnostics is, that's another tampering with scripture to make things look better for someone's pet doctrine.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
You can avoid major, expensive repair costs with an extended service plan for your GMC. Many vehicle repairs can cost thousands of dollars in unexpected expense, now may be the time to consider an extended service plan for your vehicle.