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Thread: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk View Post
    Every Bible scholar recognizes the simplistic interpretive error of your statement. Yes, context is important, but not as important as the use of figures of speech like "saved so as by fire" in ancient culture.In ancient rabbinic Judaism this expression is used to refer to temporary consignment to Gehenna due to inadequate spirituality. As a former Pharisee, Paul is most likely to have learned this usage. For precise this reasons, Catholic Bible scholars rightly invoke this verse as part of their biblical justification for their doctrine of Purgatory.
    Colonel: " That's not what I said. I said that trying to establish a non-conscious existence in Sheol based on verses from the poetic books in the OT amounts to ultra-literalism, which takes it beyond the realm of the Fundamentalist. Even the archetypical Fundamentalist understands that one cannot take everything in the poetic books literally, the poetic books are well, poetic, in nature."

    This claim can be summarily dispatched by 3 points:
    First, every Bible scholar recognizes that the claim that language in Jewish wisdom literature is figurative cannot be generalized and must be judged on a case by case basis.
    Second, the claim that OT Sheol is not a realm of conscious postmortem survival is based on a diversity of sources, Psalms, Job, and Isaiah.
    Third, the consistent OT claim that Sheol designates a postmortem realm with no thought, memory, or ability to praise and thank God is clearly literal in its intended meaning--a fact that is not contradicted by Saul's resort to biblically forbidden necromany.

  2. #62
    Colonel: " That's not what I said. I said that trying to establish a non-conscious existence in Sheol based on verses from the poetic books in the OT amounts to ultra-literalism, which takes it beyond the realm of the Fundamentalist. Even the archetypical Fundamentalist understands that one cannot take everything in the poetic books literally, the poetic books are well, poetic, in nature."

    This claim can be summarily dispatched by 3 points:
    First, every Bible scholar recognizes that the claim that language in Jewish wisdom literature is figurative cannot be generalized and must be judged on a case by case basis.
    Second, the claim that OT Sheol is not a realm of conscious postmortem survival is based on a diversity of sources, Psalms, Job, and Isaiah.
    Third, the consistent OT claim that Sheol designates a postmortem realm with no thought, memory, or ability to praise and thank God is clearly literal in its intended meaning--a fact that is not contradicted by Saul's resort to biblically forbidden necromany.

    Ezekiel: "The work being burnt up in that passage [1 Corinthians 3:15] is that person's teaching. Context will keep us steered in the right direction every time."

    This simplistic statement ignores an insight shared by every Bible scholar--that figures of speech like "saved so as by fire" derive their meaning from their use in the relevant ancient culture. Paul's theological language is shaped by his prior training as a Pharisee. In ancient rabbinic Judaism the expression "saved yet so as by fire" refers to purgative punishment in a temporary postmortem stay in Gehenna. Cultural idiomatic usage is more decisive for meaning than context, though context of course also matters. Catholic Bible scholars rightly include this text as part of their biblical justification fpr the doctrine of Purgatory.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk View Post
    Every Bible scholar recognizes the simplistic interpretive error of your statement. Yes, context is important, but not as important as the use of figures of speech like "saved so as by fire" in ancient culture.In ancient rabbinic Judaism this expression is used to refer to temporary consignment to Gehenna due to inadequate spirituality. As a former Pharisee, Paul is most likely to have learned this usage. For precise this reasons, Catholic Bible scholars rightly invoke this verse as part of their biblical justification for their doctrine of Purgatory.
    Context, friend: "9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

    16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."

    This passage is about teaching. And the point that Paul is getting at is exactly what James said in James 3:1 "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."


    Paul is warning that each teacher's work will be tested. Some false doctrine will hinder the people who follow that person's teaching. They will still be saved but will struggle in their faith because of said teaching. Other false doctrines will defile the hearers and the teacher will suffer greatly.


  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    It wasn't a parable. Jesus didn't use names in His parables.
    Ezekiel:

    Never mind that the "Rich Man" is never given a personal name throughout the story, but since the mere use of the name "Lazarus" renders this story a historical event--according to you--suppose you answer the following three questions that I previously gave to Smitty. I will precede the questions by again quoting the scriptural account.

    "{19} "There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. {20} And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, {21} who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. {22} The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, {23} and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. {24} And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' {25} But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. {26} And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' {27} 'Then I beg you, father,' he said, 'send Lazarus to my father's house, {28} for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' {29} But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' {30} And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'" (Luke 16:19-30 -- English Standard Version)


    QUESTION #1 TO EZEKIEL: The rich man asked for a drop of water to be applied to his tongue, despite the fact he was supposedly burning up in literal flames. What good is a drop of water to someone whose body is burning up?


    QUESTION #2 TO EZEKIEL: How is a drop of water supposed to survive evaporation from the heat of the flames and manage to reach the Rich Man from heaven all the way to the opposite location of hell (here on earth)?


    QUESTION #3 TO EZEKIEL: Are we to believe that hell and heaven are within talking distance, so as to accommodate the conversation between the Rich Man (who was in hell/hades on earth) and Abraham (who was in heaven)?


    Looking forward to your answers.


    Alter2Ego
    "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    Your questions start with "How could a loving God......." Let me explain it to you.

    Our spirits are eternal. They come from an eternal God. How could a JUST/RIGHTEOUS/HOLY God allow criminal spirits to roam about free and continue wreaking havoc for all of eternity? Angels are also eternal spirits. We know that many of them have been chained in the lowest parts of Hades waiting for the day when they will be dealt with. Why didn't God just wipe them out during the past several thousand years? Because they are eternal, just like us.

    God has declared that the wages of sin are death. God has declared that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. God provided the perfect Sacrifice in Jesus Christ. He shed His perfect blood to pay our sin debt so that we do not have to be sentenced to an eternity in Hell. Why? Because He is a loving God. God shows His love in this; That while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We were His enemies, at enmity with God because of our sins.
    When Jesus commanded us to love our enemies He was only telling us to do what He was doing.

    Paul tells us in Romans 8: "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    While some have mistakenly used this passage to the demise of many to push their OSAS doctrine, it does not say that nothing can separate us from God. It says that nothing can separate us from the LOVE OF GOD.

    God loved us while we were yet sinners. God so loved the world that He sent Jesus to save us from our sins. We have never been separated from His love, not since the day we were born. And He will always love us.

    As a parent I have a son who spent 11 years in prison for his sins against society. Did his mother and I ever stop loving him? NO! We understood why he was in prison. We weren't happy that he was in prison. But we still loved him. And today while he is living a prodigal life we still love him. We pray for his precious soul to be saved.

    And so it is with our heavenly Father. Those who spend eternity in spiritual prison (Hell/the lake of fire) will still be loved because nothing can separate us from the love of God. But we separate ourselves from God when we do not accept the free gift of eternal salvation which He provided for us at a very high cost.

    Salvation is eternal. Condemnation is eternal. Because we are eternal beings. No one has to spend eternity in Hell. They go there by their own choice.
    Ezekiel:

    You quoted from Romans 6:23, which presents two options that are exact opposites: death vs. eternal life. At the same time, you are arguing that eternal hellfire torment -- for dead people -- is literal:

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23 -- New International Version)


    QUESTION #4 TO EZEKIEL: Are you telling those reading this thread that death is NOT the opposite of life?



    Alter2Ego
    "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

  6. #66
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    Ezekiel:

    Never mind that the "Rich Man" is never given a personal name throughout the story, but since the mere use of the name "Lazarus" renders this story a historical event--according to you--suppose you answer the following three questions that I previously gave to Smitty. I will precede the questions by again quoting the scriptural account.

    "{19} "There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. {20} And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, {21} who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. {22} The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, {23} and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. {24} And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' {25} But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. {26} And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' {27} 'Then I beg you, father,' he said, 'send Lazarus to my father's house, {28} for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' {29} But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' {30} And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'" (Luke 16:19-30 -- English Standard Version)


    QUESTION #1 TO EZEKIEL: The rich man asked for a drop of water to be applied to his tongue, despite the fact he was supposedly burning up in literal flames. What good is a drop of water to someone whose body is burning up?


    QUESTION #2 TO EZEKIEL: How is a drop of water supposed to survive evaporation from the heat of the flames and manage to reach the Rich Man from heaven all the way to the opposite location of hell (here on earth)?


    QUESTION #3 TO EZEKIEL: Are we to believe that hell and heaven are within talking distance, so as to accommodate the conversation between the Rich Man (who was in hell/hades on earth) and Abraham (who was in heaven)?


    Looking forward to your answers.


    Alter2Ego
    Your first two questions are really irrelevant and have nothing to do with the argument for it being or not being a real person. If you were burning in hell you'd probably want a drop of water too. I'm sure the rich man wasn't thinking about evaporation properties when he was requesting the drop of water.

    Third question is this isn't talking about heaven and hell. This is talking about Abraham's Bosom and hell, two compartments that existed in the earth together. The OT saints had not gone to heaven yet because Jesus had not yet died and been resurrected.

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  8. #67
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    Ezekiel:

    You quoted from Romans 6:23, which presents two options that are exact opposites: death vs. eternal life. At the same time, you are arguing that eternal hellfire torment -- for dead people -- is literal:

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23 -- New International Version)


    QUESTION #4 TO EZEKIEL: Are you telling those reading this thread that death is NOT the opposite of life?



    Alter2Ego

    People in hell are 'alive'. They are 'dead' in the sense they are spiritually dead, separated from God. Spiritual death is not cessation of existence. You continue to exist but in the 'dead' state of being separated from God.

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  10. #68
    Demons know their fate is coming and it's very bad for them. People unsaved will suffer similarly for the punishment of their sins.Punishment will fit the crimes when God the only righteous judge sits to judge. Matthew 8:29 They began screaming at him, "Why are you interfering with us, Son of God? Have you come here to torture us before God's appointed time?" Revelation 20:11–15

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

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  12. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    People in hell are 'alive'. They are 'dead' in the sense they are spiritually dead, separated from God. Spiritual death is not cessation of existence. You continue to exist but in the 'dead' state of being separated from God.
    "Dead", also in the sense of being in a place of torment forever without hope. None.

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  14. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    People in hell are 'alive'. They are 'dead' in the sense they are spiritually dead, separated from God. Spiritual death is not cessation of existence. You continue to exist but in the 'dead' state of being separated from God.
    Quote Originally Posted by FireBrand View Post
    "Dead", also in the sense of being in a place of torment forever without hope. None.
    this is it. Whether or not there is literal fire and brimstone, the separation with no hope is the worst.

    Years ago there was a movie.. I think the title is "Marooned" and in it one of the space guys made the decision to cut himself loose from the ship to save the others.
    After seeing him float away, I couldn't stop thinking about what that would feel like. It became what I thought hell would be. Aware, and completely isolated from everyone/thing. Those who think it's going to be one big hedonistic orgy are in for a rude awakening.

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