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Thread: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

  1. #41
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I don't believe it was a parable either. Mainly, as mentioned in your post above, "...a CERTAIN rich man..." Not just 'a rich man', but a specific one.
    I looked at the Greek for that and the word isn't as "certain" as the English KJV translation will have it. The Greek "tis" is translated as "any man" 55 times in the NT, for instance :

    Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    The Norwegian translation of Luke 16:19 is similar to "There was a rich man" which is a more neutral rendering, translating it as "some or other" seems possible.

    Jesus uses the same Greek term and it's translated the same way by the KJV, in this verse :

    Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

    Which proves conclusively that the use of that Greek term doesn't prove that the story isn't a parable.

    ---

    If we take the story ultra-literally then the following doesn't make much sense theologically :

    Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.'

    How do you reconcile that with the gospel ?

  2. #42
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    If we take the story ultra-literally then the following doesn't make much sense theologically :

    Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.'

    How do you reconcile that with the gospel ?
    What do you mean?

  3. #43
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    "So if you're a person in life that says, 'I don't want anything to do with God'. Well fine. Thee is a place prepared that has nothing to do with Him."

    Revelation 21:8
    But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."



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  5. #44
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    What do you mean?
    Salvation by poverty and misery ?

  6. #45
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    "So if you're a person in life that says, 'I don't want anything to do with God'. Well fine. Thee is a place prepared that has nothing to do with Him."

    Revelation 21:8
    But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


    Bible oriented universalism speculates that they will eventually be brought out from judgment and let into heaven. It employs a timeline where the verse "God is all in all" represents the final end. Some include Satan and his minions in that, some only human beings.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Salvation by poverty and misery ?
    Not sure how you see that as a commentary on how one gets saved. It's a comment in direct response to him wanting water to be comforted.

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  9. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Not sure how you see that as a commentary on how one gets saved. It's a comment in direct response to him wanting water to be comforted.
    He could have said "now he is comforted and you are tormented" and left it at that and the implicit would be "that's why you don't receive any water". Instead he emphasizes the total contrast between the lives and afterlives of both man. Of course there's a connection implied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    He could have said "now he is comforted and you are tormented" and left it at that and the implicit would be "that's why you don't receive any water". Instead he emphasizes the total contrast between the lives and afterlives of both man. Of course there's a connection implied.
    I don't see it implied. But, if it is, he said that under the old covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    . Instead he emphasizes the total contrast between the lives and afterlives of both man. Of course there's a connection implied.
    Jesus knew exactly what he was saying ...the way we live affects out eternal destination alot more than many people realise


    Apostle James confirms Jesus' words
    Jas 2:14 - What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
    Jas 2:15 - If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
    Jas 2:16 - and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
    Jas 2:17 - Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    Jas 2:18 - But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

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    There is no Hell.

    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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