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Thread: Netanyahu blames Palestinian Arab rather than Hitler for the Holocaust

  1. #111
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Again, I apologize for posting comments made by Netanyahu that quite possibly do not support the opinions of posters here. Netanyahu should know better than to step down from telling the Truth and nothing but the Truth and fully so in the face of great adversity from the world of Liars and Ignorants.

  2. #112
    Found this article which seems to me to be an exhaustive examination of the role of the "Grand Mufti" in the holocaust.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...ore.12119/full

    Key excerpts (in my view);

    The most incriminating document regarding Husayni's role in World War II may be one written by Husayni himself: his Memoirs (Mudhakkirat), which was first published in serial form in Arab periodicals in the 1960s and 1970s. Husayni wrote with a retrospective view of the ruinous consequences of Nazi rule, but nevertheless expressed his continued admiration of Himmler, who had hosted him once a year during the war and impressed him as a profound philosopher of history (Husayni 1999, 123–24), complained to him about the perfidy of Jews (Husayni 1999, 124–25), and, Husayni claims, shared secret information with him in 1943, including news of Germany's nuclear program and the number of European Jews (three million) that had perished since the outbreak of the war (Husayni 1999, 126–27).
    ....
    The man who wrote Memoirs was embittered over the Arab defeats of 1948 and 1967 and his own marginalization within Palestinian and Arab politics. He was both defensive and defiant about his wartime support of and service to Nazi Germany. Even so, Memoirs demonstrates with verifiable detail that, at least from the time he settled in Berlin, he admired Himmler in particular and Nazism in general, shared or came to share Himmler's hatred and fear of Jews, and did everything in his power to promote the Axis cause among Arabs and Muslims. That his efforts produced little of military or geopolitical consequence was not due to any lack of zeal on his part.
    ...
    The narrative in question here, however, presents Husayni not simply as a supporter and agent of Nazi Germany, but as an instigator or "driving spirit" behind the Nazi extermination of European Jewry, a close friend of Adolf Eichmann, and an exacting inspector of death-camp operations. Many of its more recent iterations link Husayni's allegedly instrumental role in the Holocaust to claims about Arabs or Muslims more widely. Because the story of the development of this narrative has not been fully told and because the use to which it is being employed bears upon the core ethic of Holocaust historiography, I trace it here with as much precision as possible.
    ...
    At this point I return to the criteria for distinguishing responsible revision of Holocaust history from Holocaust denial and to my initial proposal that the same standards need to be applied to other potential abuses of Holocaust history. In regard to standards for responsible use of sources—"that the historian place information in context, document claims and sources, [and] acknowledge possible bias or agendas in sources" (Bartov 2000, 12)—the new Perish-Judea literature fails consistently. Each new work presents the story as if it were based on new or newly substantiated evidence, all the while recycling the same three sources—K-W, S-W, and Map Room.

  3. #113
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    The problem with the "witnesses" involved is that they typically represent the ones accused of the crimes. Nazis standing trial and the Mufti himself. The Mufti is likely to sometimes brag about his involvement and influence when it suits him and his own vision of himself, sometimes to downplay his own involvement for political reasons since he had some respect from peers. The Nazis standing trial are likely to upscale the Mufti's involvement in order to divert attention from themselves and their roles and crimes. This is a bit like trying to interview a band of criminals standing trial about their own role and the role of the others, some of which they have no loyalty towards. And none of them are necessarily repentant to any degree meaning they have no reason to be motivated to simply tell the truth. So this is very difficult, by nature.

    Regarding the positions of the Holocaust Center in Jerusalem and the Simon Wiesenthal Center, at best they choose to remain conservative in the face of newer evidence about these things for the simple reason that it is very difficult to conclude with certainty what happened and it pays to be careful with stating conclusions that may have an inflammatory effect and which do not necessarily even represent the actual truth. It may also very well be that they simply represent a different school of thought than the Virginia Holocaust museum does and that their conclusions are as firm or firmer than the ones CatchyUsername was taught.

  4. #114
    The only reason I'm going to respond here is specifically because you are completely misrepresenting what I have said. Nowhere did I even begin to assert that el-Husseini was the instigator of the Final Solution. Ever. Not even once. Never hinted at it. Re-read the entire thread if you have to. Some nazis have testified that it is the case. But as BAP kept pointing out over and over and over and over, the facts are that el-Husseini deliberately and with intention, raised up Muslim death squads to extinguish Jews. Good grief for all that is righteous and true.....what difference does it make whether he suggested to Hitler directly to "put Jews in ovens"....or whatever. His role in the Holocaust is what CatchyUsername was taught, and specifically in the museum, we specifically teach about his role raising up the Waffen-SS squads and other pertinent information about that specifically. He raised up Yasser Arafat and was a direct influence in terrorism and killing Jews, though we did not deal with that on the tour.

    Again, your going on and on, as usual, continuing to try and keep the thread alive with the need to be right, and sarcastically retorting about BB's comments, is simply smug and dishonest. No one worships BB, no one believes he's infallible or whatever other nonsense you want to pin on people, yet you try to bait people to continue arguing with you. What we have maintained from page 1 is that what he said is nowhere near being controversial. And it's not. Because as BAP has rightly said over and over is that it is minutiae in the grand scheme of things and comes across as nitpicking a point for no reason than to try and slam BB because in the grand scheme of things, he may have suggested cremating Jews, but no one can prove it, though some have testified to the veracity of this claim.

    Just let it go.....dang. LET_IT_GO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The problem with the "witnesses" involved is that they typically represent the ones accused of the crimes. Nazis standing trial and the Mufti himself. The Mufti is likely to sometimes brag about his involvement and influence when it suits him and his own vision of himself, sometimes to downplay his own involvement for political reasons since he had some respect from peers. The Nazis standing trial are likely to upscale the Mufti's involvement in order to divert attention from themselves and their roles and crimes. This is a bit like trying to interview a band of criminals standing trial about their own role and the role of the others, some of which they have no loyalty towards. And none of them are necessarily repentant to any degree meaning they have no reason to be motivated to simply tell the truth. So this is very difficult, by nature.

    Regarding the positions of the Holocaust Center in Jerusalem and the Simon Wiesenthal Center, at best they choose to remain conservative in the face of newer evidence about these things for the simple reason that it is very difficult to conclude with certainty what happened and it pays to be careful with stating conclusions that may have an inflammatory effect and which do not necessarily even represent the actual truth. It may also very well be that they simply represent a different school of thought than the Virginia Holocaust museum does and that their conclusions are as firm or firmer than the ones CatchyUsername was taught.

  5. #115
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    What we have maintained from page 1 is that what he said is nowhere near being controversial. And it's not
    The OP was about evidence for Netanyahu's claim and that claim is specific. I'm very sorry that the Israeli National Holocaust Center and the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Jerusalem disagree strongly with you that his claim is "nowhere near being controversial". But they still do, that is a fact. Since I'm allegedly ignorant of Holocaust history for asking for evidence for his claim as if it would be controversial, it consequently follows that so are they.

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  7. #117
    And as we have pointed out time and time again, a middle eastern scholar does not find it controversial either, but instead points to some evidence that he believes is critical in understanding Husseini's role. I don't have strong opinions one way or the other. Do you understand? So as BAP said 5 times, it all depends on one's interpretation of historical documents.

    You just cannot let things go. You have to debate it to death, though others have left it alone. This is the pattern I referred to on page 2 of this thread. You bait people with sarcastic musings because you just cannot fathom that your first instincts were wrong. You just cannot do it. You have to be right, and you used sarcasm to do it, ignoring what other historians have said that DON'T find his comments controversial.

    Again....if on page 1 you had just simply gone to the Amazon link I provided, read some of the reviews, maybe used google to find out more.....because we all know you used google to try and "prove" that others disagreed with Netanyahu. This is what I mean.

    But I find this exhausting and the only reason I replied in the first place was because of your complete misrepresentation of my position and the museum's position, which doesn't even mention el-Husseini's potential links to the Final Solution.

    For those who don't know what the link from waaaaaaay back said:

    Philadelphia (MEF) - October 21, 2015 - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has drawn criticism for comments about the role of al-Hajj Amin al-Husaini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem played in conceiving and perpetrating the Holocaust. Indeed, leading Nazi aides testified that al-Husaini was one of the instigators of the genocide. In his 1999 autobiography, a senior Nazi official admitted how he advised Hitler and other leading Nazis, and that he acquired full knowledge of the ongoing mass murder.

    Middle East Forum scholar, historian and author Wolfgang G. Schwanitz added, “It is a historical fact that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem al-Hajj Amin al-Husaini was an accomplice whose collaboration with Adolf Hitler played an important role in the Holocaust. He was the foremost extra-European adviser in the process to destroy the Jews of Europe.”

    Although Schwanitz heard for the first time the dialogue between Hitler and al-Husaini as told by Netanyahu, Hitler was the key architect of the Final Solution. But indeed, it is absurd to ignore the role played by al-Hajj Amin al-Husaini, a war criminal, for encouraging and urging Hitler and other leading Nazis to exterminate European Jewry. According to the foremost expert on the ties between Nazis and Islamists, there is much evidence that al-Husaini's primary goal was blocking all of the ways out of Europe. He pushed Hitler to slam the last doors of a burning house shut.

    In their 2014 book Nazis, Islamists and the Making of the Modern Middle East, published by Yale University Press, Schwanitz and co-author Barry Rubin delve into the deep ties between Hitler and the Grand Mufti:

    “At their meeting [on November 28, 1941, Hitler and al-Husaini] concluded the pact of Jewish genocide in Europe and the Middle East, and immediately afterward, Hitler gave the order to prepare for the Holocaust. The next day invitations went out to thirteen Nazis for the Wannsee Conference to begin organizing the logistics of this mass murder.”

    The highly acclaimed book also examined the Grand Mufti’s efforts to prevent Europe’s Jews from finding refuge in the land that would become Israel:

    “And since any European Jews let out of Europe might later go to Palestine, al-Husaini made it clear that if Hitler wanted Muslims and Arabs as allies he must close Europe’s exits to Jews. At the same time, al-Husaini and Arab rulers also told Britain that if it wanted to keep Arabs and Muslims from being enemies, it must close entrance to Palestine to all Jews. By succeeding on both fronts, al-Husaini contributed to the Holocaust doubly, directly, and from the start.”
    Again...the comments were not controversial to many people, including historical scholars. This is a non-issue, who cares, yawn, and good night. Sheesh!



    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The OP was about evidence for Netanyahu's claim and that claim is specific. I'm very sorry that the Israeli National Holocaust Center and the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Jerusalem disagree strongly with you that his claim is "nowhere near being controversial". But they still do, that is a fact. Since I'm allegedly ignorant of Holocaust history for asking for evidence for his claim as if it would be controversial, it consequently follows that so are they.

  8. #118
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    You just cannot let things go
    I suggest you go to the nearest mirror, look into the mirror then speak those words out loud. Thank you.

  9. #119
    * Toxic Troll - Negative Nancy Farm Truck's Avatar
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    Yeah, and they have a show on TV now about how they are looking for hitler... claiming he actually escaped Europe and has been living in South America all these years, probably molesting children er something.

    I'm sure for ratings, they will come up with some evidence before long to prove hitler lived in South America or maybe they'll find him in a coffee shop and will get an interview.... which of course they'll call in oprah winfrey for

  10. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Farm Truck View Post
    ...and they have a show on TV now about how they are looking for hitler... claiming he actually escaped Europe and has been living in South America all these years...
    ...and on that note its time to close this topic down. If someone wants to start a new thread on Hitler and a possible escape to South America, go for it.

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