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Thread: PreTrib: Myth or Reality?

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    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    PreTrib: Myth or Reality?

    Here is an excellent video:



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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    His opening question hinges on one very important (and overlooked) fact: When will "the tribulation" start, or has it already started?

    Mark 13:1-19 (NKJV)

    13 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!”

    2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”


    3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

    5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 6 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many. 7 But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for such things must happen, but the end is not yet. 8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines and troubles. These are the beginnings of sorrows.

    9 “But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.


    14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
    Luke 21:5-24 (NKJV)

    5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”


    7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

    8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

    10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
    11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.
    12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
    13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.
    14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;
    15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.
    16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.
    17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.
    18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.
    19 By your patience possess your souls.



    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
    21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
    22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
    24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
    The "Great Tribulation" started in 70 A.D. according to Jesus.

    The church was already going through tribulation, but Jesus told His disciples that this was going to be the worst tribulation since the beginning of the creation which God created.

    If one dutifully studies historical facts alongside of what the Scriptures teach you will come to the conclusion that just as Jesus proclaimed, the church has been going through tribulation for 2000 years.

    That 1 fact, all by itself proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there will be no pre-tribulation rapture.

    If the pre-trib theory were true, then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 is incorrect because we missed the 2nd coming of Christ.

    These are my thoughts, according to what I have studied and am studying. They are not cut and pasted from someone else's teaching/thoughts.

    I would love to also be able to read your actual thoughts with the applicable scriptures brother Nikos.

    2 Timothy 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Be Strong in Grace

    2 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    You have scriptures all messed up. First thing you have to have. It is a requirement. You must lay aside all your pre-suppositions. This is your biggest problem. You will never be a Bible scholar or even a good biblicist until.

    Love ya sonny!

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    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    When will this terrible period begin?

    Specifically, the Bible says it will begin at a time when all the world comes together against Israel over the issue of who will control the city of Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:2-3). In short, we are on the very threshold of the Tribulation today as we witness the United Nations, the European Union, the Vatican, and the Arab nations demanding that the Jews surrender their sovereignty over Jerusalem.

    The specific event that will mark the seven year count down of the Tribulation will be the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and her Arab enemies — a treaty that will allow the Jews to rebuild their Temple (Daniel 9:27).

    We are close to the end. Get your lamp filled with oil!!!

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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    When will this terrible period begin?

    Specifically, the Bible says it will begin at a time when all the world comes together against Israel over the issue of who will control the city of Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:2-3). In short, we are on the very threshold of the Tribulation today as we witness the United Nations, the European Union, the Vatican, and the Arab nations demanding that the Jews surrender their sovereignty over Jerusalem.

    The specific event that will mark the seven year count down of the Tribulation will be the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and her Arab enemies — a treaty that will allow the Jews to rebuild their Temple (Daniel 9:27).

    We are close to the end. Get your lamp filled with oil!!!
    So Jesus was lying/mistaken in Mark 13:19?

    Jerusalem was already destroyed (several times actually). Jesus spoke a a specific destruction though, that would happen in the lifetime of His first disciples/apostles.

    The great city has been divided into 3 parts just like Revelation 16:19. It is divided into Jewish, Christian & muslim sections.

    It was also trampled by gentiles until 1948 (Luke 21:24).

    The quote you used from Daniel was a prophecy made between 626 & 539 B.C.E. It was fulfilled by Nehemiah in about 458 B.C.E.

    I love ya too brother Nikos.


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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    You have scriptures all messed up. First thing you have to have. It is a requirement. You must lay aside all your pre-suppositions. This is your biggest problem. You will never be a Bible scholar or even a good biblicist until.

    Love ya sonny!
    Did you watch the video I posted on #69 of our other discussion? Very informative history. Very interesting too. Many people don't know the history of islam and how it spread like the cancer it is. You should check it out.

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    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Sir, I am an historian to some degree. I taught college history for 25 years.

    Did you watch the video I posted on #69 of our other discussion? Very informative history. Very interesting too. Many people don't know the history of islam and how it spread like the cancer it is. You should check it out.

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    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Pastor Smoke, it is clear that you are a preterist. Preterism teaches that either all (full preterism) or a majority (partial preterism) of the Olivet discourse (Mathew 24) had come to pass by AD 70. It is clear that you have made up your mind.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Nikos

    If you see this occur and the rapture hasn't happened will you accept pre-trib rapture is wrong



    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    When will this terrible period begin?

    Specifically, the Bible says it will begin at a time when all the world comes together against Israel over the issue of who will control the city of Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:2-3). In short, we are on the very threshold of the Tribulation today as we witness the United Nations, the European Union, the Vatican, and the Arab nations demanding that the Jews surrender their sovereignty over Jerusalem.

    The specific event that will mark the seven year count down of the Tribulation will be the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and her Arab enemies — a treaty that will allow the Jews to rebuild their Temple (Daniel 9:27).

    We are close to the end. Get your lamp filled with oil!!!

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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Pastor Smoke, it is clear that you are a preterist. Preterism teaches that either all (full preterism) or a majority (partial preterism) of the Olivet discourse (Mathew 24) had come to pass by AD 70. It is clear that you have made up your mind.
    History shows that Verses 1-25 of Matthew 24 have already taken place. That was the start of "The great tribulation" according to Jesus Himself.
    Mark 13:19 (NKJV)

    19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
    The rest has been unfolding since that time. This video is from a scientific historical view, showing what happened as islam was born and then spread.

    The guy in the video is not a theologian, and he is not trying to teach biblical doctrine. His purpose is to show what the effects of islam have been on the world we live in.

    However, if you watch it with revelation in mind, and Matthew 24, etc. you cannot help but start connecting some very important dots.

    Did you know that 60 Million Christians, 10 Million Buddhists, 80 Million Hindus & 120 Million Africans were killed as a result of islam spreading? That is 270 Million people.

    Does that sound like what is described in the book of Revelation or what?




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