Thread: Questions about the Rapture

Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

That's too bad, there is a lot more to learn.

Matthew 24 actually proves the Pre-Tribulation catching-away of the Church.





.

Actually, Matthew 24 shows the exact same timeline as Mark 13-

Matthew 24:21- Great Tribulation Starts
Matthew 24:29- After the Tribulation we see signs in the heavens.
Matthew 24:30-31- After the signs in the heavens, the whole earth will see Jesus coming on the clouds.
After He appears, He sends out the angels and Raptures the Church.


Same exact time frame as I just pointed out from Mark chapter 13.

QUESTION: How do you reconcile these two passages with the "Pre Tribulation Rapture" THEORY?

ANSWER: You don't. These 2 passages of scripture put Jesus' own words at a polar opposite of the man-made concocted idea of a pre-tribulation rapture theory.

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

Actually, Matthew 24 shows the exact same timeline as Mark 13-

Matthew 24:21- Great Tribulation Starts
Matthew 24:29- After the Tribulation we see signs in the heavens.
Matthew 24:30-31- After the signs in the heavens, the whole earth will see Jesus coming on the clouds.
After He appears, He sends out the angels and Raptures the Church.


Same exact time frame as I just pointed out from Mark chapter 13.

QUESTION: How do you reconcile these two passages with the "Pre Tribulation Rapture" THEORY?

ANSWER: You don't. These 2 passages of scripture put Jesus' own words at a polar opposite of the man-made concocted idea of a pre-tribulation rapture theory.

Maybe you should watch the whole video.





.

Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

Maybe you should watch the whole video.





.

O.K. brother. I am watching the rest of it. And he makes the point about the time of Jacob's trouble and that Matthew 24 is talking to the Jewish people and not the church. But he is totally ignoring the actual history of the fulfillment of much of this. Verses 4-14 is an overall account of the whole scenario.
Then, Verses 15-28 show the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD until the day of the Lord. The "abomination of desolation" actually happened around 67 AD if my memory serves me correctly. I would have to look back at my study notes to make sure, but it was somewhere around then. Verse 21 is Jesus announcing the great tribulation. (Even if you don't believe that He is saying that the great tribulation started with the destruction of Jerusalem, this is still important).
Verses 29-31 show the rapture of the church. Jesus declares that first their will be signs in the heavens with the sun, moon and stars. And then, He says that they will all see Him coming on the clouds (not in secret, like the LEFT BEHIND scenario). And finally, He sends his angels out to gather the elect (the rapture of the church).

The guy in your video totally ignores the actual history.
He ignores that the abomination of desolation happened before the destruction of the temple. He ignores that Rome totally destroyed the temple, not leaving one stone upon another. He ignores that the book of Acts shows verse 9 being fulfilled.

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

O.K. brother. I am watching the rest of it. And he makes the point about the time of Jacob's trouble and that Matthew 24 is talking to the Jewish people and not the church. But he is totally ignoring the actual history of the fulfillment of much of this. Verses 4-14 is an overall account of the whole scenario.
Then, Verses 15-28 show the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD until the day of the Lord. The "abomination of desolation" actually happened around 67 AD if my memory serves me correctly. I would have to look back at my study notes to make sure, but it was somewhere around then. Verse 21 is Jesus announcing the great tribulation. (Even if you don't believe that He is saying that the great tribulation started with the destruction of Jerusalem, this is still important).
Verses 29-31 show the rapture of the church. Jesus declares that first their will be signs in the heavens with the sun, moon and stars. And then, He says that they will all see Him coming on the clouds (not in secret, like the LEFT BEHIND scenario). And finally, He sends his angels out to gather the elect (the rapture of the church).

The guy in your video totally ignores the actual history.
He ignores that the abomination of desolation happened before the destruction of the temple. He ignores that Rome totally destroyed the temple, not leaving one stone upon another. He ignores that the book of Acts shows verse 9 being fulfilled.

Might want to do some checking on the actual qualifications and timing of the "abomination of desolation"

Matthew 24:15 (Amp.
So when you see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place--let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]--[Dan. 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.]


Mark 13:14 (Amp.)
But when you see the abomination of desolation mentioned by Daniel the prophet standing where it ought not to be--[and] let the one who reads take notice and consider and understand and heed [this]--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [Dan. 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.]

Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

Might want to do some checking on the actual qualifications and timing of the "abomination of desolation"

Matthew 24:15 (Amp.
So when you see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place--let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]--[Dan. 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.]


Mark 13:14 (Amp.)
But when you see the abomination of desolation mentioned by Daniel the prophet standing where it ought not to be--[and] let the one who reads take notice and consider and understand and heed [this]--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [Dan. 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.]

This is a real interesting read, with historical writings in it.

The Abomination of Desolation (Matthew 24:15-20): Berean Bible Church

This is a quote from it:

I guess our first task is to get an understanding of what the "abomination of desolation" is. To the Jews, an abomination was anything that involved the worship of false gods in sacred places.

Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. 1 Kings 11:7 ESV

Therefore, as I live, declares the Lord GOD, surely, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your detestable things and with all your abominations, therefore I will withdraw. My eye will not spare, and I will have no pity. Ezekiel 5:11 ESV

"Abomination of desolation" is a Hebrew expression meaning an abominable or hateful destroyer. To the Jews, the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel brought to their minds the Assyrian ruler Antiochus Epiphanes.

According to Jewish history recorded in the Apocrypha, the passages in Daniel were fulfilled in the intertestamental period. 1 Maccabees records how Antiochus Epiphanes (who ruled Syria from 174 to 164 B.C.) came against Jerusalem. The Jews called what he did �the abomination of desolation." Antiochus had surnamed himself Epiphanes, which means "the God Made Manifest." It was his goal to stamp out the Jewish religion. A royal edict was proclaimed that suspended its practice under penalty and pain of death. He even turned priests� rooms and the Temple chambers into public brothels. In December 168 B.C., the Temple was dedicated to Zeus. A statue of Zeus, which resembled Antiochus, was placed over the altar, and a pig was sacrificed on the alter itself! This was a filthy abomination in the sight of the Jews.

Josephus said of Antiochus Epiphanes:

He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months...he compelled the Jews to dissolve the laws of their country, and to keep their infants uncircumcised, and to sacrifice swine's flesh upon the alter" [Josephus, vol. 1, pp. 10-11].

Yeshua said that this "abomination of desolation" had been "spoken of by Daniel the prophet." This expression, "abomination of desolation," is found four times in Daniel.

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

This is a real interesting read, with historical writings in it.

The Abomination of Desolation (Matthew 24:15-20): Berean Bible Church

This is a quote from it:

Zeke, Zeke, Zeke...

So Jesus told His disciples to watch for something that had already happened before He was even born into the earth?

How about this future event meeting the definition ...

II Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

Zeke, Zeke, Zeke...

So Jesus told His disciples to watch for something that had already happened before He was even born into the earth?

How about this future event meeting the definition ...

II Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

No, it happened twice. The second time was right before the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. I think it was in 66 or 67 AD. Seems like that article talks about it.


There is no scripture which shows that the temple must be rebuilt again. Jesus Christ is the only Sacrifice that will pay for the sins of men. That is why the veil was torn when He was crucified.

And the temple is now believers, not a building.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

GIMJ, did you even examine the historical evidence that I have shown on this thread?
Questions about the Rapture

Read through that and tell me how you would go about teaching a pre-trib rapture "theory" to the church that was living through the early stages of the great tribulation.
And now it is still going on around the world too.

"Worst persecution since Chairman Mao Zedong" – China expands UNRELENTING crackdown against Christia

In order for THE "abomination of desolation" to have occurred in 70 AD or whenever you think it was, then ALL of these Scriptures concerning him would have to have been fulfilled already.

Are you not aware of the importance of Daniel's 70 weeks? (Hint: each week = 7 years)

Daniel 9:22-27
(22) He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding.
(23) "At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision.
(24) "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
(25) "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
(26) "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
(27) "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."



Daniel 11:31-45
(31) "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.
(32) "By smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people who know their God will display strength and take action.
(33) "Those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many; yet they will fall by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder for many days.
(34) "Now when they fall they will be granted a little help, and many will join with them in hypocrisy.
(35) "Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge and make them pure until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.
(36) "Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.
(37) "He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all.
(38) "But instead he will honor a god of fortresses, a god whom his fathers did not know; he will honor him with gold, silver, costly stones and treasures.
(39) "He will take action against the strongest of fortresses with the help of a foreign god; he will give great honor to those who acknowledge him and will cause them to rule over the many, and will parcel out land for a price.
(40) "At the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, with horsemen and with many ships; and he will enter countries, overflow them and pass through.
(41) "He will also enter the Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall; but these will be rescued out of his hand: Edom, Moab and the foremost of the sons of Ammon.
(42) "Then he will stretch out his hand against other countries, and the land of Egypt will not escape.
(43) "But he will gain control over the hidden treasures of gold and silver and over all the precious things of Egypt; and Libyans and Ethiopians will follow at his heels.
(44) "But rumors from the East and from the North will disturb him, and he will go forth with great wrath to destroy and annihilate many.
(45) "He will pitch the tents of his royal pavilion between the seas and the beautiful Holy Mountain; yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.


Daniel 12:1-13
(1) "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
(2) "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
(3) "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
(4) "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."
(5) Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river.
(6) And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?"
(7) I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.
(8) As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?"
(9) He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.
(10) "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
(11) "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
(12) "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!
(13) "But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

The Prophets saw the mountain peaks but not the valleys that lay in between them.

Which is one reason why the disciples thought that Jesus would immediately set up His kingdom in their lifetimes.








.

Zeke,
Do you also adhere to Replacement Theology?

What is replacement theology / supersessionism?
What is replacement theology / supersessionism? | GotQuestions.org


Question:

"What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"


Answer:

Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God's plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God's chosen people, and that God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. Among the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel are the church has replaced Israel (replacement theology), the church is an expansion of Israel (covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God's blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2,000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1,900 years?

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9–11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).

Contrary to replacement theology, dispensationalism teaches that, after the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1–5).

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God's plan for Israel. The strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1–7, where it says six times that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11).