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Thread: Questions about the Rapture

  1. #31
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    WHY A PRETRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE?


    https://tms.edu/m/tmsj13i.pdf

  2. #32
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Today, the church universal is God's human channel of redemptive truth.Revelation gives certain indications that the Jewish remnant will be God's human instrument during Daniel's seventieth week.
    This is wrong. There is only ONE church. There isn't a Jewish church and a Gentile church. We are all one in Christ Jesus according to scripture.

    The Epistles Contain No Preparatory Warnings of an Impending Tribulationfor Church-Age BelieversGod's instructions to the church through the epistles contain a variety ofwarnings, but never do they warn believers to prepare for entering and enduring thetribulation of Daniel's seventieth week.
    Paul's teachings admonished the church to be ready at all times for the coming of the Lord.



    First Thessalonians 4 fits only the model of a pretribulational rapture. It is incompatible with any other time for the rapture.
    If this were true, then 2 Thessalonians chapter one is false.


    At the rapture, Christ comes in the air and returns to heaven (1 Thess 4:17),
    This is a false statement. I will let scripture speak for itself: 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    That scripture says nothing about Him returning to Heaven at that point.

    Additionally, several of Christ's parables in Matthew 13 confirm differences between the rapture and the final event of Christ's second coming.1.In the parable of the wheat and tares, the tares (unbelievers) are taken out from among the wheat (believers) at the climax of the second coming (Matt13:30, 40), but believers are removed from among unbelievers at the rapture (1 Thess 4:15-17).2.In the parable of the dragnet, the bad fish (unbelievers) are taken out from among the good fish (believers) at the culmination of Christ's second coming (Matt 13:48-50), but believers are removed from among unbelievers at the rapture (1 Thess 4:15-17).
    Actually, these parables line up with 2 Thessalonians Chapter 1. It all happens at the same time. Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the gospel, " 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe"


    Jesus said; "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."

    When is the "then? "15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. "

    This happened in 70 AD.

    Sorry brother Nikos, but I will have to stick with Jesus on this one, rather than your professor.


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  4. #33
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Many who hold to the pre-trib rapture theory will use Revelation as a proof-text that what they believe is correct.

    Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep them from the hour of temptation,
    which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    (Rev 3:10)

    Jesus addressed this to the Church of Philadelphia in Asia Minor during the 1st century through the apostle John on Patmos.
    The Lord tells His church that He will preserve them through an "hour" (not 7 years) of temptation or trial that is to come at a future date.

    There is nothing about a Rapture here. In fact, there is nothing about a 7 year Tribulation period either.

    Another favorite the pre-tribbers like to quote is right over in the next chapter of Revelation 4 verse 1.

    When the Apostle John was called to "come up hither" it is referenced to the rapture. Of coarse, this is ludicrous to base this verse as a reference to a bodily rapture of all the saints that ever lived, and to the redeemed who are still alive. They've gone so far to say that the same words found in Revelation 11:12, "come up hither" is an appeal from heaven to get ready to be "caught up" at an unexpected time. Of coarse, this verse is reference to the two witnesses, and nothing more.

    Even deceased leading dispensationalist, and pre-trib authority, Dr. John Walvoord wrote concerning the use of the phrase "come up hither" in both Revelation 4:1 And 11:2 is not an explicit reference to the rapture of the church. He further stated that pre-tribulationism is not an explicit teaching in Scripture, nor does the Bible in so many words state it in explicit detail.

    And yes, famous deceased Left Behind author Tim LaHaye writes in his book No Fear of the Storm:

    One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the 2 aspects of His Second Coming, separated by the Tribulation. This is true. (Page 68)

    No single verse specifically states, 'Christ will come before the Tribulation. (Page 188)

    Thomas Ice, head of the Pre-Trib Research Center writes, Pre-tribbers have no proof text for the time of the Rapture.

    In "End Times Fiction" Gary DeMar writes:

    There is no single verse in the entire Bible that supports a pretrib Rapture.

    There you have it, four leading pre-tribulation advocates that cast doubt on a pretribulation secret catching away of the church.

    The bottom line is that all of the so-called proof-texts for the pre-trib rapture doctrine have come from someone snatching a verse of scripture, taking it out of context, and interpreting it in a nonliteral or allegorical manner.
    The "Prince of Preachers," Charles Haddon Spurgeon, often referred to this as "spiritualizing."
    Maybe that is why Spurgeon completely rejected the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture. It was, in Spurgeon's time, a totally NEW doctrine, and one that Spurgeon not only rejected, he even mocked those who preached it.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Biblical Evidences for a Pretribulational Rapture

    Biblical Evidences for a Pretribulational Rapture* --* Mike Vlach

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  8. #35
    Maybe that is why Spurgeon completely rejected the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture. It was, in Spurgeon's time, a totally NEW doctrine, and one that Spurgeon not only rejected, he even mocked those who preached it.
    Some folks today hang on every word of "new revelation", always looking for the next new thing. It only takes about 5 minutes over at Charisma to see how many "new things" God is doing.

    Spurgeon may have spoken unwisely, mocking folks who believed something he didn't. I can't tell you how many times when I was in msog, I heard mockery of those who still believed in the rapture at all. Mockery isn't a fruit of the Spirit.

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  10. #36
    Member WMBillPrice's Avatar
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    Matthew 24:29-31 says the Lord will return immediately after the tribulation of those days. I have always been a post-trib rapture believer, because the Bible does teach such. Also, the Church has never been an escapist Bride. While we are not appointed to the wrath of God, we will see His wrath as well as experience the wrath of antichrist and his minions. But, he who endures to the end shall be saved. There is comfort in knowing God will carry us through the darkest days of humanity. Just my thoughts.

    Grace, Shalom, and Maranatha in Jesus name.
    William M. (Bill) Price

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  12. #37
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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  13. #38
    Member WMBillPrice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Let me simply start with this quote here:

    The Pre–Tribulation concept of the Rapture did not suddenly appear on the scene in the 1830s. It had been developing slowly over a long period of time, with strands of it coming from various sources.
    So, it was a doctrine not originally taught by the early church admittedly. It was yet another 'developed' doctrine, one that the early church did not teach.

    Now, following this, there is very little to no scripture from quoted sources. What I also see is a complete ignoring of Matthew 24, the very words of Jesus. I also read of a perverting of 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 19, which do not refer to two separate events, but the same event from two different standpoints. 1 Thessalonians 4 is from the POV of the Bride, while Revelation 19 is from the POV of the condemned. But, the same event.

    The Church has never been, nor shall it ever be escapist. We are called to endure to the end. In replying to Pastor Schimmel, Dr. Reagan seems more condescending, almost Reformed in his arrogance to the teaching. But, in all his banter, the fact is that originally quoted statement is sufficient enough to wash away his defense of pre-trib. The admission of the doctrine being developed ends the entire conversation right there.

    Grace, Shalom, and Maranatha in Jesus name.
    William M. (Bill) Price

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  15. #39
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Biblical Evidences for a Pretribulational Rapture

    Biblical Evidences for a Pretribulational Rapture* --* Mike Vlach
    My dear brother, are you going to keep posting what conclusions others have come to and written or will you study the scriptures in context and see what they actually teach?

    Jesus Himself said that the greatest tribulation ever would start around the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

    To go against this is to either claim that Jesus was mistaken or lying. We both know that neither one of these is a possibility. Jesus knew exactly what He was telling His disciples. I will stand on His words about the subject today.

  16. #40
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Titus 2:13 refers to the rapture (resurrection Jn 11:24) as that, "blessed hope, and glorious appearing."
    I heard a staunch pre-tribulationist mention that the rapture can not be "blessed hope" if the suffering of the tribulation is to precede it.
    With all respect to this brother who stated this to me several years ago, my rebuff was the "blessed hope" does not become any less "blessed" because a time of difficulty and persecution precedes it.
    On the contrary, the "blessed hope" becomes all the more meaningful when our faith is tested. The greater the suffering, the more joyous will be our time of deliverance. The "meeting the Lord in the air" will be more of a blessed hope to us during the tribulation than it could ever be to non-persecuted Christians who are living here at ease in America. His rebuttal was God spared Noah from the flood and therefore He will spare Christians from the tribulation through a pre-tribulation rapture.
    I mentioned to the brother that God did not spare Noah from the flood, He spared Noah through the flood. The Bible does not promise that we will be spared from tribulation, but on the contrary, we will experience it (Acts 14:22). Even in the midst of the "great tribulation," He will never leave us or forsake us, but will give us strength and divine provision to endure it. Needless to say, that was the end of the conversation. I ended it because the brother became argumentative and upset.

    If a majority of the pre-tribulation camp will say that a loving God will not allow His church, or Christians to suffer, is to say that God does not love the 68,000,000 Christians who were killed in the last century by Communist dictators because they refused to deny Jesus or abandon their faith. To say that God will spare us from hardship and persecution in a future time of "tribulation" is to say that God made a mistake in allowing 132,000,000 people who were martyred for their faith for remaining faithful to Jesus down through the centuries.

    To say that a loving God would not allow His children to suffer would mean that God did not love John Bunyan who suffered 12 years in the Bedford jail, he did not love the Apostles who were beaten, imprisoned, and martyred minus John for their unwavering faith in their Master.

    If God spares us from the tribulation He owes the saints of the past an apology. Are we better than our forefathers who suffered for the gospel's sake? In Acts 5:41 we find the apostles "rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name." It is time that Christians stop trying to "get out of it" and learn to "endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ (2 Tim 2:3).

    Today's Christians who have lived their lives in the persecution free western world have no desire to live through great tribulation and prefer an "escapism" theology of convenience. Therefore, it is my personal opinion that 90% of the church here in the west have abandoned the "correct" theology of the Bible and created their own eschatological system that will provide them an "exit" from going through any hardship in a future "tribulation" and possibly, even experiencing martyrdom.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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