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Thread: Questions about the Rapture

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    I'm absolutely pre trib, as I think it fulfills Rosh Hashanah. Jesus and the Holy Spirit already fulfilled the Spring Jewish festivals

    1) Passover, Jesus being the Passover Lamb
    2) Unleavened Bread, the unleavened bread representing Jesus' sinless life. Part of the feast includes having to remove all leaven from your house, so you see how impossible it is to remove sin on your own.
    3) First Fruits, being the real Easter, the day Jesus rose from the dead
    4) Pentecost, the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    We're now in harvest time, the the Fall Festivals:

    5) Rosh Hashanah, the Feast of Trumpets
    6) Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement
    7) Feast of Tabernacles.

    Rosh Hashanah is a 2 day feast that features the blowing of trumpets 100 times, the last being the loudest and longest. This is to wake the sleeping. I've read that after the 2 days are up, for one week the high priest and the other priests essentially go into hiding to keep from being defiled. Coincidentally, earlier today I actually emailed the local Chabad if this is true. After the 7 days are up, the priests come back out for Yom Kippur, the day God meets man face to face. An interesting thing about this is that according to Jewish tradition, Moses' 2nd time down Mt. Sinai with the 10 Commandments was on Yom Kippur. I verified that one already on Chabad.org. The first time he came, he found most of the nation in total rebellion and had rejected God, while the 2nd time the nation had accepted God, and Moses had so much glory he had to wear a veil. Moses also had the instructions for the Tabernacle, where God will dwell with humans. That Feast takes place 5 days after Yom Kippur.

    Now, let's look at Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

    After the earth has gone through the worst 7 year span in human history, who will be leisurely eating, drinking, marrying, buying, selling, planting and building? The planet will be a smoking ember! People will be looking for a deep cave to hide out in so they don't die.

    Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

    Sounds like a departure to me!

    Just for disclosure, I didn't read through the thread, so sorry if I posted stuff already posted, although I did use search first.

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  4. #683

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    Each and every one of us has been subjected to some form of tribulation in our lives (Jn 16:33).
    As a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, you would have to be very naive not to know that the devil is our personal adversary.
    Satan not only attempts to deceive the believer, but also to hinder us and overcome us in our daily walk as we live out the Christian life.

    Americans have never faced any real persecution for their faith in Christ such as other believers endure in countries that are closed to the gospel.
    Consider the believers in North Korea. Execution is the price you will pay if you are caught with a bible.
    Christians caught meeting in secret who worship Jesus are shipped off to hard labor camps where the life expectancy is very short.
    If you are a family member not even present in a secret worship meeting, the North Korean government will give you the same brutal sentence as those you are related too. The American church is not going to escape what is coming through some false made-up secret rapture to avoid future persecution.

    The book of Revelation is a book of Martyrs. There is no such thing as "the tribulation saints." The American church will be "the tribulation saints."
    Christians in the west need to be prepared to be severely persecuted and executed in the coming days that lay ahead.
    The apostle John encourages us to be overcomers to the point of death. I fear many will deny Jesus because they were not prepared for what lies ahead.
    The false pre-tribulation rapture teaching will be the culprit to this denial of the faith, because they believed a lie, and were not prepared for the hard times they will face in that day.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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    Four reasons why we don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.



    Here are five problems with the secret rapture. I could list more, but for the sake of time I won't.

    (1) It is not Historic teaching. The early church did not teach it nor did the church fathers.

    The pre-tribulation rapture has only become popular in the last couple of centuries.
    John Nelson Darby and the Scofield study bible (with its trusted notes) is the main culprit of the secret rapture theory.
    This teaching did not show up until the 19th century.

    (2) Proponents of the secret rapture use 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 as a source of their teaching.
    But if you notice in verse 16 there is a shout of an archangel and a trumpet blast.
    This doesn't appear to be a quiet secret event. Quite the opposite occurs as the verse indicates a very Loud and public second coming of Jesus.
    Chapter five speaks of the day of the Lord which is Christ's second literal coming back to the earth.
    I find it extremely difficult to believe this is saying the day of the Lord has two parts to it, secretly and publicly.
    This is undoubtedly one event.

    (3) Luke 17 Rapture teachers claim verses 33-36 where one is taken and the other is left is the rapture.
    But if you notice it does not say that God's people ascend into the air.
    Also notice the context of the passage that Jesus refers to the days of Noah and of Lot (V. 26-29). It will be just the same (evil) at Christ's return (v.30).
    Even more astounding, when Noah was alive, it was he and those with him who were left behind, and it was that evil generation that was taken and
    swept away by the flood. It was the same with Sodom and Gomorrah. Those inhabitants of those cities were taken and destroyed by fire and brimstone.
    It was Lot, and those that accompanied him who were left behind. We can't read this text of Scripture as proof of the rapture.

    (4) 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is not dividing the coming of Jesus into two categories. In verses 50-55 it should be noticed that this is one event.
    There is no indication that these verses are speaking of two events. It speaks of the last trumpet. A very loud and singular event.
    It is very obvious that Paul expects Jesus coming not to be a secret gathering. It is a singular second advent of the Lords coming and there is a loud
    trumpet, than the resurrection occurs. That's it. That's all he gives room for. There is no indication of a secret rapture happening here at all.

    (5) Jesus doesn't teach it. In His Olivet Discourse, Jesus doesn't give any indication of Himself coming back twice. He only speaks of one coming.
    An example is found in Mark 13:24-27. There is no mention of a 7 year tribulation period, a secret coming, and another coming.
    I've noticed that pre-tribulation teachers take different passages on Jesus second coming, and add them all together out of context to build a case for a secret
    rapture. Looking at the text in Mark, you can't say there has to be to be two separate comings of our Lord. You can't find it in the text itself.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    Four reasons why we don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.



    Here are five problems with the secret rapture. I could list more, but for the sake of time I won't.

    (1) It is not Historic teaching. The early church did not teach it nor did the church fathers.

    The pre-tribulation rapture has only become popular in the last couple of centuries.
    John Nelson Darby and the Scofield study bible (with its trusted notes) is the main culprit of the secret rapture theory.
    This teaching did not show up until the 19th century.

    (2) Proponents of the secret rapture use 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 as a source of their teaching.
    But if you notice in verse 16 there is a shout of an archangel and a trumpet blast.
    This doesn't appear to be a quiet secret event. Quite the opposite occurs as the verse indicates a very Loud and public second coming of Jesus.
    Chapter five speaks of the day of the Lord which is Christ's second literal coming back to the earth.
    I find it extremely difficult to believe this is saying the day of the Lord has two parts to it, secretly and publicly.
    This is undoubtedly one event.

    (3) Luke 17 Rapture teachers claim verses 33-36 where one is taken and the other is left is the rapture.
    But if you notice it does not say that God's people ascend into the air.
    Also notice the context of the passage that Jesus refers to the days of Noah and of Lot (V. 26-29). It will be just the same (evil) at Christ's return (v.30).
    Even more astounding, when Noah was alive, it was he and those with him who were left behind, and it was that evil generation that was taken and
    swept away by the flood. It was the same with Sodom and Gomorrah. Those inhabitants of those cities were taken and destroyed by fire and brimstone.
    It was Lot, and those that accompanied him who were left behind. We can't read this text of Scripture as proof of the rapture.

    (4) 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is not dividing the coming of Jesus into two categories. In verses 50-55 it should be noticed that this is one event.
    There is no indication that these verses are speaking of two events. It speaks of the last trumpet. A very loud and singular event.
    It is very obvious that Paul expects Jesus coming not to be a secret gathering. It is a singular second advent of the Lords coming and there is a loud
    trumpet, than the resurrection occurs. That's it. That's all he gives room for. There is no indication of a secret rapture happening here at all.

    (5) Jesus doesn't teach it. In His Olivet Discourse, Jesus doesn't give any indication of Himself coming back twice. He only speaks of one coming.
    An example is found in Mark 13:24-27. There is no mention of a 7 year tribulation period, a secret coming, and another coming.
    I've noticed that pre-tribulation teachers take different passages on Jesus second coming, and add them all together out of context to build a case for a secret
    rapture. Looking at the text in Mark, you can't say there has to be to be two separate comings of our Lord. You can't find it in the text itself.
    1) Much of the Bible is a progressive revelation. I would argue that Paul taught a departure.

    2) I think the author is arguing against a straw man here. I don't know anyone who argues for a secret rapture, as hundreds-of-millions to billions of people disappearing will be hard to keep as a secret. 1 Thess also mentions meeting Jesus in the air, while the 2nd coming Jesus comes back riding a white horse and splits the Mt. of Olives. Those are 2 separate events. White horses aren't mentioned anywhere in 1 Thess 4:15-18.

    3) It doesn't say God's people will ascend into the air, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Speaking of Noah & Lot, both were given warnings of impending disaster and God took them out of the places that would be punished so they wouldn't suffer with everyone else . They couldn't go to heaven at that point, but now, thanks to Jesus, we can. If anything Noah & Lot are a type of departure. Luke 17 also teaches that people will be buying, selling, building, planting, eating and drinking. Revelation teaches that a comet will strike and make much of our water undrinkable, which will also cause famine. People won't be eating and drinking, buying, selling, building or planting just before the 2nd coming.

    4) Paul isn't dividing, but probably due to the first one impacting us and not the second. Again, I don't know where he gets the ideas of a secret rapture.

    5) Jesus didn't teach believing in his death, burial, and resurrection during his earthly ministry either, but if you're not trusting in that, you're lost.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    4) Paul isn't dividing, but probably due to the first one impacting us and not the second. Again, I don't know where he gets the ideas of a secret rapture.

    Josh

    The strongest proponents of the pre trib rapture have been describing it as a secret rapture for decades.

    What is the concept of a secret rapture? | GotQuestions.org

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    I have a friend who is anti pre trib.
    His argument is if a billion people suddenly disappear won't those remaining be so shocked that they will now believe that the Christians were right and refuse the mark of the beast.

    The pre trib believers explain that the world govt will say that UFO's took people or some other extreme explanation which he thinks is far fetched and that it won't work as people will know it was the christians who disappeared.

    Those who believe in pre trib ...what explanation will world govts use to explain the rapture?

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