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Thread: Joyce Meyer - Theology Concerns?

  1. #161
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Which leads to a simple question for the all-out-anti-JDS crowd. Where does scripture say that things got better for Jesus once he got to Hades ? Where does it declare that Jesus found relief from the agony that he experienced up until his moment of death ? Scripture declares that Jesus died for our sins, not that he suffered on the cross then found relief by dying.

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    GodismyJudge (12-02-2018)

  3. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Here's what the most well known Messianic passage in the OT has to say about it :

    Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
    He has put Him to grief.
    When You make His soul an offering for sin,
    He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
    And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
    11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
    By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
    For He shall bear their iniquities.

    But what does it mean that his soul was made a sin offering ?

    12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
    And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
    Because He poured out His soul unto death,
    And He was numbered with the transgressors,
    And He bore the sin of many,
    And made intercession for the transgressors.

    When did that end ? With his resurrection from death.

    Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
    9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.

    When did death have dominion over Jesus ? It's not that clear when it began but it's clear when it ended.
    So, if I am following you right, you are OPEN to the POSSIBILITY that Jesus spirit could have suffered in hell.

    To me the question is, could Jesus have suffered in his spirit "equivalently/sufficiently" (e.g., separated from God) AT THE CROSS, to what it would have been in hell? If so, then the claim would then not need to suffered in hell after the cross.

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    Ezekiel 33 (12-06-2018)

  5. #163
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Scripture is clear that he suffered God's wrath and death in his soul both on the cross and in hell. It does not state clearly that he was tortured by demons while in hell and he certainly wasn't tortured by men there. His nature, which means his heart inclinations did not change and he remained obedient in the face of it all, by choice.
    The sufficiency of his time on the cross ? The cross represents a death in a cursed place, not just agony until death. Without a subsequent resurrection the crucifixion completed by physical death (rather than being taken down after a while of suffering) implies death as a finality. Scripture says that he tasted death for us. You and I die physically but we don't taste death like Jesus did. Not even if we die as crucified martyrs. Do you see the difference ? Jesus' tasting death would have lasted for eternity, as was the devil's intention when he saw that Jesus was in human form. Only the resurrection changed that and that was when our salvation was made complete. His moment of death on the cross ended his earthly ministry then he resurrected in a more glorious form, having conquered death, which could not hold him precisely because it had nothing in him.

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  7. #164
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Scripture is clear that he suffered God's wrath and death in his soul both on the cross and in hell. It does not state clearly that he was tortured by demons while in hell and he certainly wasn't tortured by men there.
    Yeah, I'm not sure where anybody is getting this tortured by demons stuff.

  8. #165
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure where anybody is getting this tortured by demons stuff.
    I think it stems from the idea that Jesus suffered what we would have suffered. Then people think of hell and envision people being tortured by demons and/or each other as if they still have physical bodies. There's not much in the Bible about demons in hell. The only direct references I can think of from the NT is one in Revelation where a demon rises from the abyss. I'm not sure if the verse is supposed to be taken ultra literally. Then the account from the gospels where demons plead with Jesus to not send them into the abyss but rather into the herd of swine.
    When Jesus was on the cross he was being tortured by men and indirectly by the devil who made them sentence him to death. Also by way of the spiritual atmosphere present, Psalm 22 suggests that he was encircled by demons tormenting his soul. Transferring that directly to Hades is more speculative. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus states that the rich man was tormented by fire while in Hades. That's not the same as the wrath of God, as a general thing that's postponed until Hades itself is cast into the lake of fire. Whatever hellfire amounts to when talking of a human being without a physical body, I don't see any indication of Jesus suffering hellfire anywhere in the Bible. Suffering the wrath of God over sin and one's soul being completely filled by death (meaning that there is no sense of any good any longer) ought to be enough though.

  9. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure where anybody is getting this tortured by demons stuff.
    Agreed, the "tortured by demons" is not specifically stated, so speculative. MAYBE, the Devil and his demons laughed at thinking they destroyed Jesus, as we can imagine all kinds of possibilities.

    BUT, is it more biblically accurate/implied that Jesus would suffer the same way a man would suffer if he went to hell? To me that is the more important question.

  10. #167
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    Agreed, the "tortured by demons" is not specifically stated, so speculative. MAYBE, the Devil and his demons laughed at thinking they destroyed Jesus, as we can imagine all kinds of possibilities.
    It's amazing how much wackiness has been taught by well known ministers who subscribe to JDS. Some of the big names have declared that Jesus was defeated by Satan until God rescued him from the whole mess by resurrecting him anyway. That is so totally contrary to the whole gospel message. Yes, Jesus suffered and yes, the devil thought that he had him and that Jesus would have to succumb but the whole point is that he did not and then, when God was sure that Jesus had died completely to sin (Romans 6 talks about that) then He resurrected him.

    BUT, is it more biblically accurate/implied that Jesus would suffer the same way a man would suffer if he went to hell? To me that is the more important question.
    See my post just above.

  11. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure where anybody is getting this tortured by demons stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I think it stems from the idea that Jesus suffered what we would have suffered. Then people think of hell and envision people being tortured by demons and/or each other as if they still have physical bodies. There's not much in the Bible about demons in hell. The only direct references I can think of from the NT is one in Revelation where a demon rises from the abyss. I'm not sure if the verse is supposed to be taken ultra literally. Then the account from the gospels where demons plead with Jesus to not send them into the abyss but rather into the herd of swine.
    When Jesus was on the cross he was being tortured by men and indirectly by the devil who made them sentence him to death. Also by way of the spiritual atmosphere present, Psalm 22 suggests that he was encircled by demons tormenting his soul. Transferring that directly to Hades is more speculative. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus states that the rich man was tormented by fire while in Hades. That's not the same as the wrath of God, as a general thing that's postponed until Hades itself is cast into the lake of fire. Whatever hellfire amounts to when talking of a human being without a physical body, I don't see any indication of Jesus suffering hellfire anywhere in the Bible. Suffering the wrath of God over sin and one's soul being completely filled by death (meaning that there is no sense of any good any longer) ought to be enough though.
    I'm not saying anything one way or another at this point.

    But I think it may come from this ...

    It all depends on the meaning of this passage/word translations...

    Colossians 2:15 (KJV)
    And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

    ***

    Colossians 2:15 (CLV)
    stripping off the sovereignties and authorities, with boldness He makes a show of them, triumphing over them in it."


    Colossians 2:15 (YLT)
    having stripped the principalities and the authorities, he made a shew of them openly—having triumphed over them in it.

    Colossians 2:15 (JMNT)
    stripping off and away (undressing; putting off and laying away; as a mid.: divesting Himself of) governments and authorities. And He made a public exhibit, in bold freedom of speaking, leading them in a triumphal procession within it. [or: Undressing Himself (stripping off [His body]), He also made a public display of the rulers and the authorities, with boldness leading them as captives in His victory procession in it (or: within Him).]


    Colossians 2:15 (Weymouth)
    And the hostile princes and rulers He shook off from Himself, and boldly displayed them as His conquests, when by the Cross He triumphed over them.


    (WUEST)
    having stripped off and away from himself the principalities and authorities, He boldly made an example of them, leading them in a triumphal procession in it.



    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

  12. #169
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what you mean, GIMJ. Is anyone contending that Jesus was tortured physically and emotionally by men and also spiritually by demons while he was hanging on the cross ?

    Psalm 22:12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
    Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
    13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
    Like a raging and roaring lion.
    14 I am poured out like water,
    And all My bones are out of joint;
    My heart is like wax;
    It has melted within Me.
    15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
    And My tongue clings to My jaws;
    You have brought Me to the dust of death.
    16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
    The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
    They pierced My hands and My feet;
    17 I can count all My bones.
    They look and stare at Me.
    18 They divide My garments among them,
    And for My clothing they cast lots.

    19 But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me;
    O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
    20 Deliver Me from the sword,
    My precious life from the power of the dog.
    21 Save Me from the lion’s mouth
    And from the horns of the wild oxen!

  13. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean, GIMJ. Is anyone contending that Jesus was tortured physically and emotionally by men and also spiritually by demons while he was hanging on the cross ?
    I don't understand what you are saying or asking.
    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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