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Thread: Why Can't You Be a Christian Witch? Michael Brown

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by BAP View Post
    I don't disagree with you in principle but I have always wondered about the verse you have quoted and its proper application .

    Does that mean the Christian who ignorantly reads horoscopes which is a form of witchcraft automatically goes to hell ?

    Also consider the following


    Given that revelation 21:8's list of those going to hell starts with the Fearful and given that the disciples in Acts 9 were afraid would that mean that the disciples at that time were in danger of going to the lake of fire ?
    If ignorance was the exception to a staying out of hell then we would do better for the lost by never sharing the gospel or spending millions of dollars trying to reach unreached territories with the message of Christ. Their ignorance has already saved them.

    Not going to get in a semantical discussion over the use of the words about fear in those two passages. If a person wants to take a chance with their eternal salvation by trying to find loopholes in God's Word, no argument I might be able to offer, if I wanted to offer one, would convince you otherwise. For me, I simply have decided that eternity is too long to be taking chances.
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  3. #32
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Teaching people to do good works or else they will end up in hell is also a matter of not taking chances since both Jesus and the epistle authors talk about that. We might also include suffering in general in this life like Lazarus did and ended up in Paradise because of that. Now we are down to salvation by faith plus good works plus all sin repented of plus some level of suffering and we are some kind of Catholics. How many good works and how much suffering is required for eternal salvation is an open question and now there is no security at all - and the devil is laughing at us.

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  5. #33
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    If a person wants to take a chance with their eternal salvation by trying to find loopholes in God's Word, no argument I might be able to offer, if I wanted to offer one, would convince you otherwise. For me, I simply have decided that eternity is too long to be taking chances.
    Based on your version of "what is required for salvation", I'm not taking any chances. If a believer quits believing then he's on his way to hell. Mental alignment to doctrine does not necessarily imply heart faith. If a believer lives in sin then that will erode faith and eventually bring the person to where they choose to abandon the faith or to where their faith becomes dead and amounts to mere profession.

    So in reality there is no difference except that I don't believe that living in sin brings about an automatic and instant loss of salvation. I never tell anyone to take any chances by abandoning faith, embracing faith-destroying doctrine or living in sin.

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  7. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    If ignorance was the exception to a staying out of hell then we would do better for the lost by never sharing the gospel or spending millions of dollars trying to reach unreached territories with the message of Christ. Their ignorance has already saved them.

    Not going to get in a semantical discussion over the use of the words about fear in those two passages. If a person wants to take a chance with their eternal salvation by trying to find loopholes in God's Word, no argument I might be able to offer, if I wanted to offer one, would convince you otherwise. For me, I simply have decided that eternity is too long to be taking chances.
    Chief , VW sheathe your sword it was a good faith question and I am open to being convinced otherwise if you would make the effort

    Not looking for loopholes it really just does get confusing sometimes as to whether or not salvation is based solely on Jesus finished work or if its Jesus Finished Work (Plus Plus Plus)

    We all agree that sin has consequences, none of us believes in OSAS but I am sure most of us would agree that not one of us is there yet in terms of perfect behavior

    So Yes ignorance of Gods word does keep a lot of believers away from God's best (You yourself have said as much) but the question is does it keep them out of heaven as you seem to suggest this verse suggests ..


    Let me digress for a minute
    Mark 16:17-20 King James Version (KJV)
    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
    The above verse if treated similarly would make one question the salvation of 90 percent of Christians since relatively few experience any of the above . But I am sure you would agree that salvation has both identificational and experiential components and bible verses speak to those two components at different times.

    In essense the verse above speaks to Christian Experiential Potential rather than Identity in Christ.

    So back to Revelation 21 All in all I believe that Rev 21 speaks to the experiential side of those whom choose to maintain an identity outside of Christ Jesus . So the real season for their going to hell fire is their rejection of Christ with the listed sins being the natural outworking of those decisions.

    No ?

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  9. #35
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I tend to agree with that interpretation, BAP. It's mostly about identity. That which is born again cannot sin at all but the person can live according to the flesh and then sin. When faith erodes or is abandoned then the flesh part becomes the person's identity and the born again person is gone. Part of our sanctification walk is to de-identify with the carnal self, the one who naturally practices all those things and to identify with the new creature in Christ who only practices righteousness.

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  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I tend to agree with that interpretation, BAP. It's mostly about identity. That which is born again cannot sin at all but the person can live according to the flesh and then sin. When faith erodes or is abandoned then the flesh part becomes the person's identity and the born again person is gone. Part of our sanctification walk is to de-identify with the carnal self, the one who naturally practices all those things and identify with the new creature in Christ who only practices righteousness.

  12. #37
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    It may be difficult to ascertain if what someone calls "having faith" really is or if it's mental alignment to correct doctrine. Paul was addressing people who professed faith when he wrote the following :

    2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

    He told them to examine themselves to see if it really was so, that they had faith. What does he tell them to do ? Basically to ascertain that Jesus Christ is living in them. As 1 John says "the one who has the son has life". How does Jesus Christ live in us ? By the presence of the Holy Spirit in our spirits. The Holy Spirit acts as a seal of our future redemption :

    2 Cor 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
    22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

    Eph 1:13 in Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

    That's three witnesses to the fact that the Holy Spirit acts as God's seal in us, guaranteeing the promise of future redemption.

    The next question is of course "how can I be sure that what I think is the Holy Spirit living in me, really is".

    The answer to that is that people do fake tongues that they once had and manage to stir up Charismatic emotions that they think amount to "the Holy Spirit". So it's always possible to fool oneself.

    To address the OP. A Christian believer who listens to Vanessa Love and becomes a "Christian witch" and now practices witchcraft may believe that they still have faith and the Holy Spirit but what they have now is partial mental alignment plus a demonic presence inside and corresponding demonic power. In this case it's not make believe, it's simply a different spirit.

  13. #38
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Teaching people to do good works or else they will end up in hell is also a matter of not taking chances since both Jesus and the epistle authors talk about that. We might also include suffering in general in this life like Lazarus did and ended up in Paradise because of that. Now we are down to salvation by faith plus good works plus all sin repented of plus some level of suffering and we are some kind of Catholics. How many good works and how much suffering is required for eternal salvation is an open question and now there is no security at all - and the devil is laughing at us.
    The good works which we were created to do are the proof in the pudding that we are actually saved. They are not what saves us. The works that God created us for are to be disciples of Jesus. To become more and more like Him, showing the Father's love to a lost and dying world. If we were born again (given a new nature, the nature of Christ) then that should be reflected in our life. People should see Jesus in us.

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  15. #39
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    The good works which we were created to do are the proof in the pudding that we are actually saved. They are not what saves us. The works that God created us for are to be disciples of Jesus. To become more and more like Him, showing the Father's love to a lost and dying world. If we were born again (given a new nature, the nature of Christ) then that should be reflected in our life. People should see Jesus in us.
    Likewise we are created to live holy lives. We are told to be perfect like God is perfect, which means to never sin again. Jesus told people "go and sin no more". Not even once. There are many things that aren't requirements for salvation. There are many reasons why we should do all of those things even if failing to do so doesn't automatically imply an instant loss of salvation and descent into hell if one happens to die the same second. Positive reasons are always better than reasons related to fear.

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