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Thread: The Jonah sign

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I’ve always used that as proof Jesus spent time in hell in torment (especially since Jesus revealed it as a prophecy about himself). That certainly wasn’t paradise. It doesn’t get any plainer than that.
    Feels like JDS deja vu all over again...

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    Feels like JDS deja vu all over again...

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    Feels like JDS deja vu all over again...
    This is not meant to be the usual JDS vs anti-JDS trench war. Please pay attention to the details. The Jonah sign is important and I'll concede that how one interprets 2 Cor 5:21 matters a lot too. But people's interpretation of that verse tends to follow what else they believe.

  4. #14
    Carry on my friend...

  5. #15
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    When Jesus said he would be "in the heart of the Earth" he didn't mean Paradise. Why didn't angels carry him to the bosom of Abraham in Paradise like they did with Lazarus in the parable of the rich man in Luke 16 ? The reason why they carried Lazarus to Paradise was of course that he was accounted righteousness by faith, just like Abraham. The rich man wasn't and he naturally ended up in hell. We know that God poured out his wrath on Jesus because he saw Jesus as sin, on the cross. But when did this end ? We have a clue here :

    Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
    47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, “This Man is calling for Elijah!”
    48 Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink.
    49 The rest said, “Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him.”
    50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

    He was still under the wrath of God in verse 46 and he died a few minutes later, in verse 50. Did God's wrath suddenly cease since he died ? Did God all of a sudden see Jesus as righteous ? Nope, here's what one of the Messianic psalms says :

    Psalm 88:6 You have laid me in the lowest pit,
    In darkness, in the depths.
    7 Your wrath lies heavy upon me,

    Here Jesus is in Sheol. He's not in the bosom of Abraham being comforted by him. God doesn't see him as righteous, he is still pouring out his wrath on him. What is the state of a man who is in Sheol with no righteousness to rescue him ? You tell me.

    When did God decide to see him as righteous again ? As he resurrected him, quite obviously. Why did he choose to see him as righteous and then rescue him ? Because of his obedience :

    Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
    9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name

    Psalm 18:4 The pangs of death surrounded me,
    And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
    5 The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me;
    The snares of death confronted me.
    ***
    19 He also brought me out into a broad place;
    He delivered me because He delighted in me.
    20 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness;
    According to the cleanness of my hands
    He has recompensed me.
    21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
    And have not wickedly departed from my God.

  6. #16
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    Just like 2 Cor 5:21 touches on the theme of the Jonah sign, the following verse does as well :

    1 Tim 3:16 God was manifested in the flesh,
    Justified in the Spirit,
    Seen by angels,
    Preached among the Gentiles,
    Believed on in the world,
    Received up in glory.

    The Greek word translated as "justified" is used about justification as in being declared righteous throughout the NT. It seems to tie in with 2 Cor 5:21 where Jesus was "made sin". When was he made sin ? When God's wrath over sin was poured out on him on the cross. When did he cease being seen as sin ? When God justified him in the Spirit. When did that happen ? When he resurrected him again, obviously. There was no "justification in the Spirit" involved when Jesus said that God had forsaken him, nor as he gave up his spirit and died. Nor while he was still in Sheol.

    Alternatively one could interpret "justified in the Spirit" as meaning that Jesus never sinned and was therefore "justified" in all that he did. But that seems redundant, why not simply state that he was "without sin" as Heb 4:15 does ? Elsewhere the same term is used about people who are justified in the sense that they go from being seen as unrighteous to being seen as righteous, meaning there is a status change involved. This time courtesy of the Holy Spirit.

  7. #17
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    Another verse that relates to the Jonah sign.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

    John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
    52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.

    So Jesus tasted death so that those who believe in him should never taste death. What does that mean ? How did Jesus taste death ?

    Was it by dying physically ? We all die physically. Was it by enduring the cross and the way of dying that it entails ? Nope, some of the apostles and many other Christians have been martyred by crucifixion and died the same way Jesus died. The only thing that we all escape, is tasting the death that starts when a sinner dies physically. That was the death that Jesus tasted so that we would never taste it. So how does that feel ? I don't know, but it's described here :

    Psalm 18:4 The pangs of death surrounded me,
    And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
    5 The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me;
    The snares of death confronted me

    And it ended here :

    Acts 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

    His default state was that it would have lasted forever but his resurrection changed that :

    Acts 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades

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