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Thread: The angel of the Lord

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Exod 3:2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
    3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
    4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
    And he said, “Here I am.”
    5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”
    6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

    Exodus 23:20 “Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
    21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.
    22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
    23 For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off.

    Exod 14:19 And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
    20 So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night.

    Some Christians teach that "the Angel of the Lord" was Jesus and not really an angel. Is there any indication of that anywhere in the OT or NT ?

    Yes, This was Jesus, the Lord God, who is YHWH.


    Angels are called sons of God.


    The Angel of the Lord is The Son of God.


    The english word is angel, which is the Hebrew is messenger.


    The Messenger of the Lord is the Word or Message of God.



    Angels are spirits.


    The Angel of the Lord is the Spirit of the Lord.


    17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17




    JLB

  2. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLB View Post
    Yes, This was Jesus, the Lord God, who is YHWH.


    Angels are called sons of God.


    The Angel of the Lord is The Son of God.


    The english word is angel, which is the Hebrew is messenger.


    The Messenger of the Lord is the Word or Message of God.



    Angels are spirits.


    The Angel of the Lord is the Spirit of the Lord.


    17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17




    JLB
    I don't see anything in the above that proves that it was Jesus and not an angelic being. There is no capitalization of "Angel" as in "Angel of the Lord" in the original Hebrew, that's an interpretative translation into English.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

    Mat 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

    Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

    Exod 33:2 And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.

    It seems that throughout the Bible we have God or Jesus as Lord of heaven and all the angels mentioned are mere messengers (as the term angel means) or representatives.

    Even in the OT God himself is separate from the angel mentioned, even if the angel represented God to the people :

    Exod 14:19 And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.

    The angel moved with the pillar of cloud/fire.

    Exod 14:24 Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the Lord looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians

    The term translated "the Lord" is Jehovah (or YHWH) and makes him separate from the angel who was with the cloud since God is now looking down through the cloud. God as in Jehovah is also referred to in Exodus 19 and he talks about sending his angel before them in Exodus 23, making the angel an entity separate from himself.

    Exod 24:9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
    10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.
    11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

    In chapter 24 they see what is referred to as God himself and this time there is no mention of any angel.

    I see no reason to define "the angel of God" as being Jesus rather than simply a very powerful angelic being. I think people have done that at will because they want to read the person of Jesus into the Old Testament whenever they can, since he is never mentioned there by name.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    This is how the NT deals with the topic of the angel of the Lord :

    Acts 7:30 “And when forty years had passed, an Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai.
    31 When Moses saw it, he marveled at the sight; and as he drew near to observe, the voice of the Lord came to him,
    32 saying, ‘I am the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ And Moses trembled and dared not look.
    33 ‘Then the Lord said to him, “Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.
    34 I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt; I have heard their groaning and have come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send you to Egypt.” ’
    35 “This Moses whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge?’ is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush.
    36 He brought them out, after he had shown wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
    37 “This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.’
    38 “This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,
    39 whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt,

    The angel of the Lord is mentioned many times in this passage but there is no mention of him really being Jesus. To the contrary, the future prophet that Moses mentioned in a speech to the people is identified as Jesus and is the one Stephen's audience is to listen to and obey. Jesus himself mentions the burning bush passage and doesn't identify the angel as himself. He does however state that Abraham saw him :

    John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.

    Which involved a vision of the future, not of an angel approaching him.

    So the theory that the angel of the Lord really was Jesus has no Biblical foundation, it's just wishful thinking.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Joshua 5:13-15; The "man" in verse 13 was the Angel of Jehovah. He introduced himself as commander of the army of the Lord. Mere angels never accepted worship, but here, Joshua falls to the ground and prostrated himself. The Angel of the Lord commands worship, thereby proving His divine nature. This is indeed is a manifestation of God. Further more, I believe the appearance of this man is none other than the pre-incarnate Lord Jesus Christ Himself. I also notice that Joshua must learn firsthand what Moses had to learn at the beginning of his ministry---the holiness and supremacy of the Lord. As far as a NT encounter of a divine occurrence, although no angel is mentioned, is at the "transfiguration" (Mt 17:1-9). Jesus is transfigured into His pre-incarnate glorified state (Rev 1:12-16) as God the Father speaks. I don't know if any of this I post is relevant to your OP though Colonel.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    Joshua 5:13-15; The "man" in verse 13 was the Angel of Jehovah. He introduced himself as commander of the army of the Lord. Mere angels never accepted worship, but here, Joshua falls to the ground and prostrated himself. The Angel of the Lord commands worship, thereby proving His divine nature. This is indeed is a manifestation of God. Further more, I believe the appearance of this man is none other than the pre-incarnate Lord Jesus Christ Himself. I also notice that Joshua must learn firsthand what Moses had to learn at the beginning of his ministry---the holiness and supremacy of the Lord. As far as a NT encounter of a divine occurrence, although no angel is mentioned, is at the "transfiguration" (Mt 17:1-9). Jesus is transfigured into His pre-incarnate glorified state (Rev 1:12-16) as God the Father speaks. I don't know if any of this I post is relevant to your OP though Colonel.
    Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
    14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”
    And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”
    15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

    Where does it say that this was an angel ? It says that it was a man. I don't think it's clear from verse 14 if Joshua was worshipping God or if he was worshipping "the commander of the Lord's army". He may have been facing the commander as he fell on his face or he may have been facing in some other direction.

    Can you find a passage where what is actually referred to as an angel receives worship and doesn't complain ?

  7. #17
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, "Are You for us or for our adversaries?"
    14 So He said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come."
    And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, "What does my Lord say to His servant?"
    15 Then the Commander of the Lord's army said to Joshua, "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so.

    Where does it say that this was an angel ? It says that it was a man. I don't think it's clear from verse 14 if Joshua was worshipping God or if he was worshipping "the commander of the Lord's army". He may have been facing the commander as he fell on his face or he may have been facing in some other direction.

    Can you find a passage where what is actually referred to as an angel receives worship and doesn't complain ?
    My mistake angel is not mentioned. I merely thought that Joshua assumed that this was an angelic encounter at the first response to this surprise visitor. In the context of the passage, it is clearly evident that the "Captain of the host of the Lord"(KJV) is a divine being whether it's God the Father or God the Son. I don't believe this is a mortal man who is in charge of a human army.

    Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of angels"...(Col 2:18).

    John fell down to worship at the feet of the angel and his response was; "Do not do that; "I am a fellow servant of yours"...'worship God (Rev 22:8-9).
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    My mistake angel is not mentioned. I merely thought that Joshua assumed that this was an angelic encounter at the first response to this surprise visitor. In the context of the passage, it is clearly evident that the "Captain of the host of the Lord"(KJV) is a divine being whether it's God the Father or God the Son. I don't believe this is a mortal man who is in charge of a human army.

    Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of angels"...(Col 2:18).

    John fell down to worship at the feet of the angel and his response was; "Do not do that; "I am a fellow servant of yours"...'worship God (Rev 22:8-9).
    Joshua's very first response upon seing what looked like a man with a sword was to try to figure out whose side this commander of an army was on. "Friend or foe". Then the man introduced himself as sent from heaven. So it was no mortal man but it could have been something more than an angel. The angel in Rev 22 complained about being worshipped as if he were God.

    Here's another appearance of someone who looks like a man :

    Daniel 8:15 Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.
    16 And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”
    17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

    This time the man is giving the archangel Gabriel commands. It could be the same commander of the Lord's army (which would include Gabriel) and it could be the pre-incarnated Son of God.

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  10. #19
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Here's the angel of the Lord again :

    Judges 13:15 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You."
    16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.)
    17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?"
    18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"
    19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on—
    20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground.
    21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
    22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!"

    The angel instructs them to offer a burnt offering but to offer it to the Lord, the implication being that they shouldn't offer it to him (the angel). Still Manoah thinks in verse 22 that he has seen God, just like Moses did when he encountered the angel of the Lord in the desert, in the burning bush. So it wasn't God or the pre-incarnated Jesus, it was a powerful angel capable of representing God fully to those whom he appeared to.

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  12. #20
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Here's a possible source of the idea that the angel of the Lord was really Jesus :

    1 Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
    2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
    3 all ate the same spiritual food,
    4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

    The angel was with the cloud :

    Exod 14:19 And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.

    Moses struck a rock at Horeb and it gave water a little later :

    Exod 17:5 And the Lord said to Moses, "Go on before the people, and take with you some of the elders of Israel. Also take in your hand your rod with which you struck the river, and go.
    6 Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink."

    But there was no rock that followed them and they only drank water from the rock at Horeb while they were at that location. So what does it mean ? It seems to be merely spiritual, probably a metaphor for the words given through Moses and the presence of God as such.

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