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Thread: Beth Moore's Challenge--Lee Grady

  1. #61
    Ok Brother Cardinal, here's my response to you, in friendship and love I'm not going to belabor the point much longer, just wanted to address some things....



    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    FO
    Not all of the below is specifically addressed to you just general comments....written in friendship


    Not casting aspersions or assuming ...Beth Moore failed to speak into the situation for decades on female abuse when she was in a position of authority to do so.
    She was recognised and received many blessings and accolades in her position and had a duty to bring darkness to light like other men and woman have done in the past without the powerful voices supporting them.

    The fact is she chose to IGNORE female abuse and she was no different to Hollywood women who were criticised on this forum and elsewhere who only came out after it was safe to speak out due to the media as well as other powerful voices.

    You really don't know if she "chose" to ignore them or not. As I said earlier, she may not have been of the mindset to challenge what was happening...or maybe the people she was accountable to in ministry advised against it. Point is that WE REALLY DON'T KNOW why she did not speak against it prior to this. Yes, I am giving her the benefit of the doubt.

    I am holding Beth Moore to the same standards as men in positions of influence. Ok then that is your right and prerogative.

    Some Christian women don't want female leaders held to the same standards as men and will respond with cries of sexism if they are challenged.

    I am trying to be impartial when confronting issues in regards to male and female ...over the years I have made far more comments on male leaders who I disageed with so why can't I do likewise with a woman leader. Ok then that is your right and prerogative.

    FO
    In defending BM you gave her the benefit of the doubt so why didn't she admit others suffer more around the world instead of it being about her... it would have brought some balance to her article. It wasn't really all about her...got back and reread what she wrote.


    I agreed with her that no women should be abused but the tone of the article and things she didn't address as well as the way she addressed some points made it difficult for me to fully respect what she wrote.

    and

    can you show me where I said she wants to take things away from men...not sure how you arrived at that


    I will say it again if any man or woman aspires to be a leader there is suffering with the territory.
    That does not mean God condones any form of evil or abuse it is just a fact


    There is a ex Muslim lady who was abused in her native Somalia and now speaks around the world under threat of death. Her name is Ayaan Hirsi Ali .
    I know she has been mentioned on this forum.

    I have more respect and honour for her above Beth Moore and many male leaders as she came from a difficult background.
    I am honouring this lady and she isn't even a christian - she has done MORE for females around the world than many other voices including female christian leaders


    Is it sexism for bringing my concern about BM and some female leadership issues yet it's not sexist to say similar about men..isn't this double standards
    Cardinal, I respect your opinion and you have the right to it...but it sounds like you have beef with women (American or Western) ministers for some reason. You ARE casting aspersions on BM just because she DARED to speak out...Did you read BM's actual blog post to arrive at your opinion or are you basing it on Grady's article? Here is her actual post:
    https://blog.lproof.org/2018/05/a-le...-brothers.html

    I have accepted these kinds of challenges for all of these years because they were simply part of it and because opposition and difficulties are norms for servants of Christ. I've accepted them because I love Jesus with my whole heart and will serve Him to the death. God has worked all the challenges for good as He promises us He will and, even amid the frustrations and turmoil, I would not trade lives with a soul on earth. Even criticism, as much as we all hate it, is used by God to bring correction, endurance and humility and to curb our deadly addictions to the approval of man.
    I accepted the peculiarities accompanying female leadership in a conservative Christian world because I chose to believe that, whether or not some of the actions and attitudes seemed godly to me, they were rooted in deep convictions based on passages from 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14.
    Then early October 2016 surfaced attitudes among some key Christian leaders that smacked of misogyny, objectification and astonishing disesteem of women and it spread like wildfire. It was just the beginning. I came face to face with one of the most demoralizing realizations of my adult life: Scripture was not the reason for the colossal disregard and disrespect of women among many of these men. It was only the excuse. Sin was the reason. Ungodliness.
    I'm asking for your increased awareness of some of the skewed attitudes many of your sisters encounter. Many churches quick to teach submission are often slow to point out that women were also among the followers of Christ (Luke 8), that the first recorded word out of His resurrected mouth was "woman" (John 20:15) and that same woman was the first evangelist. Many churches wholly devoted to teaching the household codes are slow to also point out the numerous women with whom the Apostle Paul served and for whom he possessed obvious esteem. We are fully capable of grappling with the tension the two spectrums create and we must if we're truly devoted to the whole counsel of God's Word.
    Maybe your bias is rooted in her speaking out against Trump and the whole "grab 'em by the *****" thing, I dunno. But you did lump her into the whole "hollywood liberal" #metoo narrative, and that isn't fair. She comes from a conservative Christian background, and if you world read HER post in its entirety you would see how difficult it was for her to speak out. And NO, she didn't make it all about her.

    Like I said, not gonna belabor this any further. You have a right to your feelings..God bless.

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  3. #62
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    .
    I do not have time to address all of this....male and female differences are by God's design...not cultural. Slavery WAS cultural...

    So they are apples and oranges...I really don't have time to address all the rest except this one thing...God did not say nice apparel, ect was wrong...He stated in that context that the focus should be on the internal...and I don't see a conflict on the hair thing either....

    Lastly scripture says Eve was deceived, Adam was not...yet you say both were deceived....well I simply disagree because the Bible states otherwise. Did both disobey? Yes...but Yes it clearly is was a gender thing....Adam was reprimanded for hearkening to the voice of his wife....

    Now I ask you, can you not SEE the same pattern repeated ESPECIALLY in today's society? Women rebelling and demanding to be leader control, mocking and demeaning men, and men letting their wives dictate the raising of the children, fighting all the battles, making all the decisions? Their marriages don't last but many many go down this same road...Women by nature WANT to be in control and men more often by nature want to let them....

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  5. #63
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    I do not have time to address all of this....male and female differences are by God's design...not cultural. Slavery WAS cultural...

    So they are apples and oranges...I really don't have time to address all the rest except this one thing...God did not say nice apparel, ect was wrong...He stated in that context that the focus should be on the internal...and I don't see a conflict on the hair thing either....

    Lastly scripture says Eve was deceived, Adam was not...yet you say both were deceived....well I simply disagree because the Bible states otherwise. Did both disobey? Yes...but Yes it clearly is was a gender thing....Adam was reprimanded for hearkening to the voice of his wife....

    Now I ask you, can you not SEE the same pattern repeated ESPECIALLY in today's society? Women rebelling and demanding to be leader control, mocking and demeaning men, and men letting their wives dictate the raising of the children, fighting all the battles, making all the decisions? Their marriages don't last but many many go down this same road...Women by nature WANT to be in control and men more often by nature want to let them....
    The fact that there are gender differences doesn't imply that all the gender related issues discussed in the NT have no cultural context.

    This is not an either or thing, as in

    Either "there are no fundamental gender differences and every gender related issue discussed in the NT is purely cultural in nature"

    or "every gender related issue discussed in the NT reflects gender differences that are fundamental to all men and all women irrespective of culture"

    The truth is found somewhere between those two extremes.

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  7. #64
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The fact that there are gender differences doesn't imply that all the gender related issues discussed in the NT have no cultural context.

    This is not an either or thing, as in

    Either "there are no fundamental gender differences and every gender related issue discussed in the NT is purely cultural in nature"

    or "every gender related issue discussed in the NT reflects gender differences that are fundamental to all men and all women irrespective of culture"

    The truth is found somewhere between those two extremes.
    It is significant that WOMEN today dismiss some scripture interpreting it as cultural...it was not and still is not....I simply don't have the time or energy to attempt to try to pick and choose what may have been and what was not...in fact once you start down that road the only end it has is the one we choose...maybe another time and place...

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  9. #65
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    It is significant that WOMEN today dismiss some scripture interpreting it as cultural...it was not and still is not....I simply don't have the time or energy to attempt to try to pick and choose what may have been and what was not...in fact once you start down that road the only end it has is the one we choose...maybe another time and place...
    I gave you an example of a gender related scripture in the NT that has to have a cultural context since the diametrically opposite command is found in the law. Which makes your ultra literalism unbiblical per default. You define the various scriptures on slavery as all having a cultural context but you do so by choice. You simply choose an all-out cultural approach with one and an all-out literal approach with the other. This is all about your personal choices.

  10. #66
    Senior Member Valiant Woman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaithfulOne View Post
    Ok Brother Cardinal, here's my response to you, in friendship and love I'm not going to belabor the point much longer, just wanted to address some things....

    Cardinal, I respect your opinion and you have the right to it...but it sounds like you have beef with women (American or Western) ministers for some reason. You ARE casting aspersions on BM just because she DARED to speak out...Did you read BM's actual blog post to arrive at your opinion or are you basing it on Grady's article? Here is her actual post:
    https://blog.lproof.org/2018/05/a-le...-brothers.html


    Maybe your bias is rooted in her speaking out against Trump and the whole "grab 'em by the *****" thing, I dunno. But you did lump her into the whole "hollywood liberal" #metoo narrative, and that isn't fair. She comes from a conservative Christian background, and if you world read HER post in its entirety you would see how difficult it was for her to speak out. And NO, she didn't make it all about her.

    Like I said, not gonna belabor this any further. You have a right to your feelings..God bless.
    Well done FO!
    When your praise match your prayers, the answer will come.
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