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Thread: Giving it Back to Johnny Mac

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    I'm amazed how ignorant Christians are about how to engage in civil discussion/debate. ... I have come to the conclusion that debate is pretty much a waste of time, because the only people who show up are people who have an agenda to promote and they're not interested in learning.
    Right, it is a waste of time to talk to people with agendas, not openly considering or trying to understand other points of view, or trying to find some common ground, not behaving charitably. Call it lack of maturity, lack of analytical skills, lack of respect for people. If you want to do debate right:
    1 - Do it respectfully and articulately, like Michael Brown on his Line of Fire
    2 - Do it intelligently and congenially, like Are Miracles for Today? Zondervan - several points and counterpoints are done, gentlemanly, where you really can learn something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    Well, he challenged me to prove that "incarnation" was used that way in Kenyon's day, so I went to Joe McIntyre's book on Kenyon and found the names of people who used it that way. I then found pages on the web to prove my point and provided him with three links. His reaction? He started insisting that WoF people are trying to redefine theological terminology, which is what all cults do. He never did concede the point that I just proved after he challenged me on it. He wasn't interested in the truth, and most of these people aren't from my experience.
    Yes, many people are in judgmental-mode, and even if you clearly explained YOUR BELIEFS, they still would believe that you must be trying to deceive them with "redefining" (i.e., twisting) religious terms. They are judging your motives, WHICH IS GOD'S JOB -- it's on the accusers to answer to God on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    Me ... I want somebody to prove me wrong if I'm wrong, and I've been wrong lots of times like everybody else. so I saw his character and integrity, and how he lived. I've never met a more focused, stable, committed Christian in my life. That's one reason I'm so convinced that the stories of his visions are true, which helps me to stick to my guns when people call him a heretic, charlatan, plagiarizer ...
    Appreciate you sticking up for the objective FACTS about people and do the FINE ARTICULATION and CONTEXT that helps the FAIRMINDED to get the real story. Consider that there are people out there that genuinely want to know the 2nd side of the story, not just what the loud-mouthed accusers are blasting.

    I remember when prosperity was coming out as a young Christian in the late 70's. My Campus Crusade director "warned me" about those "dangerous" teachings. But I am the type of person that NEVER trusted people badmouthing others beliefs - I will investigate both sides myself, thank you. This has served me well over the years, as the truth and/or the "healthy-core" is often "somewhere in the middle" of considering both sides (as my municipal judge friend says in my blog). Same story with WoF later.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    the truth and/or the "healthy-core" is often "somewhere in the middle" of considering both sides (as my municipal judge friend says in my blog)
    Aha.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    LOL, I would have figured you to be too young to know this song but then you are a musician so I supposed you would have looked into all genres of music.
    I was a kid through the 60's and 70's, but have always appreciated good music.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    I was a kid through the 60's and 70's, but have always appreciated good music.
    I recall ice skating with that song on the PA.

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  6. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    Thanks for the kind words, all. When I decided to self publish my book after years of letting it go to waste (because nobody wanted to publish an unknown author) I started looking around for other research on WoF apologetics, and that's how I discovered VW's material and Christian Forums. I started posting some there, but as he said it's pretty boring. One of the guys there PM'd me about the WoF forum at the CARM site, and asked me to help out over there. Well I soon discovered that it was basically a site for anti-WoF people to get a little exercise on the WoF punching bag. I've never met a more uncivil group in my life. Then one of my subscribers told me about Christian Chat, which is slightly more civil than CARM but much livelier than CF. I posted in that forum for awhile but got tired of the animosity there, too. I'm amazed how ignorant Christians are about how to engage in civil discussion/debate. I guess a lot of people are hurt by their experiences and rather than discussing theology they want to vent and rage. I have come to the conclusion that debate is pretty much a waste of time, because the only people who show up are people who have an agenda to promote and they're not interested in learning.
    Glad you are on here!

    Looks like some excellent material in support of Dad Hagin and WOF on your web site, J&G. Thanks!!!

    Also, the You Tube rebuttals look great, too. I have only viewed a couple so far but will definitely look at the others soon.

    There is a tremendous need for a strong voice to speak against the disinformation and false representation of the heresy hunters and their so-called apologetics. Thanks again!

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  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    Thanks for the kind words, all. When I decided to self publish my book after years of letting it go to waste (because nobody wanted to publish an unknown author) I started looking around for other research on WoF apologetics, and that's how I discovered VW's material and Christian Forums. I started posting some there, but as he said it's pretty boring. One of the guys there PM'd me about the WoF forum at the CARM site, and asked me to help out over there. Well I soon discovered that it was basically a site for anti-WoF people to get a little exercise on the WoF punching bag. I've never met a more uncivil group in my life. Then one of my subscribers told me about Christian Chat, which is slightly more civil than CARM but much livelier than CF. I posted in that forum for awhile but got tired of the animosity there, too. I'm amazed how ignorant Christians are about how to engage in civil discussion/debate. I guess a lot of people are hurt by their experiences and rather than discussing theology they want to vent and rage. I have come to the conclusion that debate is pretty much a waste of time, because the only people who show up are people who have an agenda to promote and they're not interested in learning.

    On a side note, at CARM I had a guy tell me that WoF people teach the "little gods heresy". I told him that Kenneth Hagin never taught that, and he quoted Hagin saying that believers are as much an incarnation as Jesus. So in response I said that he was quoting Kenyon when he said that, and that in Kenyon's day "incarnation" was used to describe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (God in the flesh), so essentially Kenyon was just stating Evangelical theology in an unorthdox manner. Therefore, Kenneth Hagin wasn't saying that believers are gods, but that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Well, he challenged me to prove that "incarnation" was used that way in Kenyon's day, so I went to Joe McIntyre's book on Kenyon and found the names of people who used it that way. I then found pages on the web to prove my point and provided him with three links. His reaction? He started insisting that WoF people are trying to redefine theological terminology, which is what all cults do. He never did concede the point that I just proved after he challenged me on it. He wasn't interested in the truth, and most of these people aren't from my experience.

    Me ... I want somebody to prove me wrong if I'm wrong, and I've been wrong lots of times like everybody else. I used to believe in reincarnation. I thought Edgar Cayce was a prophet. I used to use the same cessationist arguments that MacArthur's crowd does when I was a Baptist teenager visiting an Assembly of God church. Eventually they got through to me and I understood. The difference between me and most is that I've been at this Charismatic theology stuff for over 40 years, and I've had the privilege of meeting Kenneth Hagin and teaching at his school, so I saw his character and integrity, and how he lived. I've never met a more focused, stable, committed Christian in my life. That's one reason I'm so convinced that the stories of his visions are true, which helps me to stick to my guns when people call him a heretic, charlatan, plagiarizer ... etc. I don't agree with everything he said, but on those few issues where I don't agree I don't stoop to the level of his critics. I just chalk it up to the fact that we're all human and we're all going to see things differently at times.Tutuapp 9apps Showbox

    Hopefully we can all benefit from the discussions here. I've certainly had enough of the poisonous atmosphere at the other sites. Thanks again for making me feel welcome
    .
    Welcome to us and I thank you for the excellent style of dialogue in this way we will all benefit
    Last edited by rossi; 01-14-2019 at 01:48 PM.

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