Thread: Church offering "Conversion therapy" workshop

Originally Posted by fuego

No, but they choose to accept the conditioning. They may not know they are being conditioned, but they still accept it. Many adults don't know they're being conditioned, but they accept the conditioning. That makes them responsible for it before God. We can't stand before God and offer ignorance as an excuse. Ignorance doesn't get you a pass into heaven.

The truth about homosexuality may be being 'preached' wrongly in many instances, but it's still the truth and they are being exposed to the truth. Just because someone doesn't like the manner in which it's being presented doesn't excuse them from the responsibility to receive it. Nobody is going to be able to stand before God and use 'but I didn't like the way it was presented to me' as an excuse.

On the other hand, it's not about the sin of homosexuality in and of itself. It's that they are 'sinners'. The core problem needs to be dealt with. I think it's futile to deal with the root problem before trying to deal with the fruit. Although the law deals with the fruit of the sinner to show the way to the root. But actually trying to 'change' them before they are born again is futile. But mentioning it as a sin isn't wrong either. Just read Paul in the gospels.

While they are still children or even teens, ALL children accept the conditioning they go through. No child can possibly process the idea "Whoa. I'm being conditioned homosexually and that's not good. Oh well, I'll just reject my conditioning and everything will turn out okay."

As an adult Christian they can repent of their sins--and as you said go for the root cause. However, they will have to go through some hard times. As I said long ago here, it would be like you, a heterosexual, having to recondition yourself to homosexuality. It's that engrained in them. Homosexuality belongs to the realm of the "old man." Trying to change the old man's desires is a waste of time and it's bad theology. The only solution for anyone with a sin problem of any kind (including homosexuality) is to reckon the old man dead and to live out his or her new creation identity.

Originally Posted by Bookman

While they are still children or even teens, ALL children accept the conditioning they go through. No child can possibly process the idea "Whoa. I'm being conditioned homosexually and that's not good. Oh well, I'll just reject my conditioning and everything will turn out okay."

As an adult Christian they can repent of their sins--and as you said go for the root cause. However, they will have to go through some hard times. As I said long ago here, it would be like you, a heterosexual, having to recondition yourself to homosexuality. It's that engrained in them. Homosexuality belongs to the realm of the "old man." Trying to change the old man's desires is a waste of time and it's bad theology. The only solution for anyone with a sin problem of any kind (including homosexuality) is to reckon the old man dead and to live out his or her new creation identity.

Does that mean that a sadomasochist who becomes a repentant Christian will have an equally hard time with a normal approach to sex as other people would have with becoming sadomasochists at will ? Or does this only apply to homosexuality ?

Originally Posted by Colonel

Does that mean that a sadomasochist who becomes a repentant Christian will have an equally hard time with a normal approach to sex as other people would have with becoming sadomasochists at will ? Or does this only apply to homosexuality ?

Any sinner who has a deeply engrained sin pattern established in their "old man" is going to discover that their only remedy is reckoning their old sinful man dead, having been crucified with Christ on the cross (Romans 6), and learn to live out of their new identity in Christ.

Originally Posted by Bookman

Any sinner who has a deeply engrained sin pattern established in their "old man" is going to discover that their only remedy is reckoning their old sinful man dead, having been crucified with Christ on the cross (Romans 6), and learn to live out of their new identity in Christ.

So according to you there is nothing natural whatsoever to fall back upon ?

Originally Posted by Colonel

So according to you there is nothing natural whatsoever to fall back upon ?

Not when it comes to sin. The only remedy is the cross. Any "natural" attempts to deal with sin will result in either failure or, if seemingly successful, self-righteousness. Sin is never conquered through natural means.

Originally Posted by Bookman

While they are still children or even teens, ALL children accept the conditioning they go through. No child can possibly process the idea "Whoa. I'm being conditioned homosexually and that's not good. Oh well, I'll just reject my conditioning and everything will turn out okay."

No, but they'll still be held accountable one day. The point is that it's not a part of their 'constitutional appetite' that they were born with.

As an adult Christian they can repent of their sins--and as you said go for the root cause. However, they will have to go through some hard times. As I said long ago here, it would be like you, a heterosexual, having to recondition yourself to homosexuality. It's that engrained in them.

Yes, it's ingrained, but engrained through conditioning, NOT being a part of their born constitutional makeup. It is NOTHING like me, being a heterosexual, having to recondition myself to homosexuality. That's where you're wrong because we are BORN into heterosexuality. Our desire for the opposite sex is a constitutional appetite that we're born with, that God put in us, thus we can't be delivered from that any more we can be delivered from the desire to eat which is a part of all people's constitution makeup, not a learned behavior. Therefore constitutional makeup has to be CONTROLLED through the new nature and conscience. Homosexuality is a LEARNED behavior as you have already said. Therefore one can be DELIVERED of it just like they can be delivered of smoking or any other learned behavior. I'm not saying it's as easy to be delivered, but they can be delivered nonetheless. It is NOT ingrained in the same way my heterosexuality is ingrained because God MADE me a heterosexual.


Homosexuality belongs to the realm of the "old man." Trying to change the old man's desires is a waste of time and it's bad theology. The only solution for anyone with a sin problem of any kind (including homosexuality) is to reckon the old man dead and to live out his or her new creation identity.

Agreed, but one more thing to further my point. Heterosexuality does NOT belong to the old man. That's put in us by God. Homosexuality does belong to the old man, this being sin, and thus one can be delivered from it.

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Do you believe a gay man or a lesbian can believe on Christ and become "saved" while engaged in a homosexual relationship?